This essay is an attempt to answer the question if Star Trek or Warhammer 40K would win in a war. This essay will look at different scenarios and suggest that different scenarios lead to different outcomes. In general war between the Federation of Star Trek and the Imperium of Warhammer 40K is assumed but this is only one of several possible scenarios. Before looking at different scenarios a step by step comparison of important scenario elements will be done. This essay has five sections (1) super races, (2) near human races, (3) weapons, (4) Imperial Navy vs. Star Fleet and (5) scenarios.
1.0) SUPER RACES
Super races are races that are far, far more powerful than humans. Super races are races that are so powerful that their participation in a conflict between the Federation and the Imperium could decisively affect the outcome of the war.
1.1) Star Trek Super Races
1.11) Borg – NF – The Borg are cybernetically enhanced humanoids. Their ability to assimilate other races make them especially powerful.
1.12) Cyntherians – [TNG ‘The Nth Degree’] The Cyntherians have an IQ booster. The Cyntherians can probe with advanced shielding and computer abilities. Their probe shows advanced shielding capability. The Cyntherians have developed a graviton-field drive capable of traversing the galaxy within minutes.
1.13) Dyson’s Sphere Builders – The race itself is a mystery but the capability to build a Dyson sphere suggests technology far beyond that of the Federation.
1.14) Iconians – The Iconian gateway technology allows one-way transit at least the distance between the Gamma Quadrant and Earth, instantaneously. Some form of shielding and computer disruption capability advanced by the standards of the Federation.
1.15) Nagilum – [TNG ‘Where Silence Has Lease’] The Nagilum is a being that dominates a region of “void space” and has the ability to warp reality but apparently only in this region.
Nanites – [TNG ‘Evolution] Sentient, self-developing.
1.16) Organians – The Organians are so powerful that they can stop a war between the Federation and the Klingons with just a thought.
1.17) Paxans – Energy fields, capability of rapidly taking over a Federation vessel. Maximum shields were stated to only accelerate the process.
1.18) Q – A super race of unimaginable power that may be as above the other super races as the super races are above humans.
1.19) T’Kon – An extinct empire of indeterminate power and capabilities. The T’Kon have planetary shielding. The T’Kon are capable of easily overwhelming the Enterprise and Ferengi. The T’Kon were apparently devastated by a supernova.
1.110) Tox Uthat [TNG ‘Captain’s Holiday’] – The Tox Uthat have a quantum phase inverter, from the twenty-seventh century. This is a palm-sized crystal capable of stopping the nuclear reaction going on within a star.
1.111) V’Ger – Introduced in Star Trek: The Movie. How powerful? See the movie!
1.112) Zalkonians. [TNG ‘Transfigurations’] The Zalkonians have a long range strangulation device. The Zalkonians can ignore Federation shields. The Zalkonians are evolving’ members into a species that has the capability to remotely reanimate heal and reanimate the recently dead.
1.2) Warhammer 40K Super Races
1.21) Chaos Gods – There are many chaos gods but there are four major chaos gods:
1.22) Khorne – God of Blood, rage, war and unrelenting fury
1.23) Tzeench – God of Change, magic, schemes and plots
1.24) Nurgle – God of Decay, disease and physical corruption
1.25) Slaanesh – God of Hedonism, excess and pleasure
These four gods are the most powerful beings in the Warhammer 40K universe. They exist in a parallel universe called the warp that exists in the Warhammer 40K universe but not the Star Trek Universe. The power of the chaos god in the warp is immense but the extent of their power outside of the warp is much more limited. Inside the warp the chaos gods can probably hold their own against any of the super races in the Star Trek universe except the Q. Outside the warp, the chaos gods may not be as powerful as many of the super races in the Star Trek universe.
1.26) Greater Daemons – The Greater Daemons are much less powerful than the Chaos Gods but still much more powerful than humans. Their main manifestation outside of the warp is via possession of mortals and there are limits to their ability to leave the warp.
1.27) Daemon Princess – Mortals that receive “gifts” from the Chaos Gods can grow to become Daemon Princess and are extremely powerful.
1.28) Elder Gods – Powerful gods that are good as opposed to the Chaos Gods but not as powerful as the Chaos Gods.
1.30) Super Race Conclusion
The super races of Star Trek are generally one-shots. The super races of Warhammer 40K are part of the foundation of this universe and interference, one way or another, would be more likely from the Warhammer 40Ksuper races than the Federation super races. The main limitation of the super races of the Warhammer 40K universe is their limited ability to manifest outside of the warp. Their ability to even operate in the Star Trek universe at all has to be questioned. The Star Trek super races in turn do not have the same warp type limitations. There is no super race in Warhammer 40K universe that is anywhere near the power level of the Q.
2.0) NEAR HUMAN RACES
Near human races are defined here as not being a super race and having power and ability more or less in the same range as the human race. Special attention will be given to races that do not belong to the Imperium or Federation but have special powers or abilities of significance in combat.
2.10) Star Trek – Near Human Races
There are literally over a hundred near human races in the Star Trek universe. Most of them have some interesting cultural quirk developed for plot purposes but totally irrelevant in a combat situation. There are also so many one shot races that even a dedicated Trekkie has a hard time keeping them straight. The focus will be on near human races that could have a significant impact on the outcome of war if they joined forces with the Federation.
The two best known warrior races in the Star Trek universe include the Klingons and the Jem’Hadar. Both of these warrior races are much stronger than humans and are far better trained in combat that most members of the Federation. The Jem’Hadar also have a natural cloaking ability. The Changelings, the creators of the Jem’Hadar, and are shape shifters that used this ability and strategic cunning to conquer one quadrant of the Star Trek Universe. The Changelings could infiltrate the Imperium and acts as perfect spies. Other enemies of the Federation that have large empires and large star ship fleets include the Romulans and the Cardassians but they are not warrior races and would bring numbers but not necessarily any special warrior skills to the table. Vulcans are generally considered to be extremely strong, how strong is a matter of debate, and have advanced training in logic that would be useful in a battle field.
2.11) Klingons
2.12) Jem’Hadar
2.13) Changelings
2.14) Vulcan
2.20) Warhammer 40k – Near Human Races
The near human races of Warhammer 40K include the:
2.21) Dark Eldars
2.22) Demiurg
2.23) Eldar
2.24) Genestealer
2.25) Gretchin
2.26) Necrons
2.27) Old Ones
2.28) Orks
2.29) Ripper Swarms
2.210) Snotling
2.211) Squat
2.212) Tyranid
2.213) Vespid
2.214) Warrior Genus
2.215) Zoat
Some of the races on this list are very powerful and would give the Imperium a significant edge in any war if they joined the Imperium.
The Eldar are a race much older than humanity and can see in the future and have technology superior to that of Imperium. Eldars that have followed the path of the warrior are incredible warriors that have close combat capabilities that have been developed over millennia and that far surpass the combat skills of the Klingons and Jem’Hadar. The Necrons are even older than the Eldars and also have combat capabilities that surpass the warrior races of the Star Trek universe. The Necrons resemble skeletons and many are thousands of years old and they are just plain creepy much creepier than any race in the Star Trek universe. The Tyranids are an insect like race that exist in various genetic permutations. Tyranid psychology is very alien and an alliance between them and the Imperium is unlikely but they would give the Imperium a huge advantage if they joined the cause of the Imperium.
2.30) Near Human Races Conclusion
There are many more near human races in the Star Trek universe than the Warhammer 40K universe. The near human races of the Warhammer 40K universe are far more powerful than the near human races of the Star Trek universe. If you judge someone by their enemies then the Imperium is indeed a fearsome force. Fighting humanoids like the Klingons and Jem’Hadar is one thing, fighting giant insects and practically indestructible skeletons is another. The participation of near human races in a war between the Federation and the Imperium would help the Imperium much more than the Federation.
3.0) WEAPONS
Below are two sets of lists for the purposes of comparing Star Trek weaponry and Warhammer 40K weaponry. The weapons of both universes have been broken into three categories: energy weapons, melee weapons and ranged weapons. These are all the weapons available in a particular universe not just those used by the Federation or Imperium. If the weapons are not generally used and/or available to the Federation or Imperium, then the alien race that uses this weapon has been identified.
3.10) Star Trek Energy Weapons
3.11) Cobalt diselenide
3.12) Disruptors – Breen, Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans
3.13) Hellgun
3.14) Hellpistol
3.15) Lascannon
3.16) Laser Destroyer
3.17) Lasers
3.18) Laspistol
3.19) Metreon cascade – Haakonian Order
3.110) Multilaser
3.111) Phase cannons
3.112) Phase pistols
3.113) Phased polaron cannon
3.114) Phasers-Defence Laser
3.115) Pulse cannons
3.116) Romulan thalaron bomb – Romulan
3.117) Thalaron radiation – Romulan
3.118) Varon-T disruptors – Illegal in the Federation
3.20) Star Trek Melee Weapons
3.21) Ahn’woon – Vulcan
3.22) Bat’leth – Klingon
3.23) D’k tahg – Klingon
3.24) KaBar combat knife
3.25) Katana – Japanese
3.26) Lirpa – Vulcan
3.27) Mek’leth – Klingon
3.28) Qutluch – Klingon
3.30) Star Trek Ranged Weapons
3.31) Chroniton torpedoes – Krenim
3.32) Dreadnought – Cadassian
3.33) Gravimetric torpedoes – Borg
3.34) Isokinetic Cannon
3.35) Isolytic burst
3.36) Magnetometric guided charges
3.37) Multikinetic neutronic mines – Borg
3.38) Phased plasma torpedoes
3.39) Photon torpedoes
3.310) Plasma torpedo – Cardassians, Gorn, Romulans
3.311) Polaron torpedoes
3.312) Positron torpedoes – Kessok
3.313) Q firearms
3.314) Quantum torpedoes
3.315) Series 5 long range tactical armor unit
3.316) Spatial torpedoes
3.317) TR-116 Projectile Rifle
3.318) Transphasic torpedoes
3.319) Tricobalt devices
3.40) Warhammer 40K Energy Weapons
3.41) Burst cannon – Tau
3.42) Conversion beamer
3.43) Cyclic ion blaster – Tau
3.44) Fire Pike – Eldar
3.45) Fusion blaster – Tau
3.46) Fusion gun – Eldar
3.47) Fusion pistol – Eldar
3.48) Inferno cannon
3.49) Inferno Gun
3.410) Inferno pistol
3.411) Ion cannon – Tau
3.412) Kroot gun – Tau
3.413) Lasblasters – Eldar
3.414) Lasgun
3.415) Laser lance – Eldar
3.416) Meltabomb
3.417) Meltagun
3.418) Multi-melta
3.419) Neutron blaster – Tau
3.420) Particle accelerator – Necrons
3.421) Particle projector – Necrons
3.422) Particle whip – Necrons
3.423) Plasma Annihilator
3.424) Plasma Blastgun
3.425) Plasma Cannon
3.426) Plasma Cannon (Titan)
3.427) Plasma Destructor
3.428) Plasma Destructor (Titan)
3.429) Plasma gun
3.430) Plasma missile – Eldar
3.431) Plasma pistol
3.432) Plasma rifle – Tau
3.433) Ranger long rifles – Eldar
3.434) Turbolaser Destructor
3.435) Volcano Cannon
3.5) Warhammer Melee weapons
3.51) Biting Blade – Eldar
3.52) C’tan Phase Sword
3.53) Chainsabres – Eldar
3.54) Chainfist
3.55) Chainsword
3.56) Diresword – Eldar
3.57) Eviscerator
3.58) Executioner – Eldar
3.59) Frost blade
3.510) Hand flamer
3.511) Harlequin’s Kiss – Eldar
3.512) Hunting Lance
3.513) Lightning Claw
3.514) Neuro-Gauntlet
3.515) Mandiblaster – Eldar
3.516) Mirrorswords – Eldar
3.517) Power Blades – Eldar
3.518) Power Maul
3.519) Power Sword
3.520) Powerfist
3.521) Scorpion Chainsword – Eldar
3.522) Scorpion’s Claw – Eldar
3.523) Shock Gauntlet
3.524) Shock Maul
3.525) Staff of Light – Necrons
3.526) Thunder Hammer
3.527) Warscythe – Necrons
3.528) Witchblade – Eldar
3.529) Wraithsword – Eldar
3.60) Warhammer Ranged Weapons
3.61) Airbursting fragmentation launcher – Tau
3.62) Animus Speculum
3.63) Anti-plant grenade
3.64) Assault cannon
3.65) Autocannon
3.66) Autogun
3.67) Autopistol
3.68) Battle Cannon
3.69) Blind grenade
3.610) Bolt Pistol
3.611) Bolt Weapons
3.612) Boltgun
3.613) Choke grenade
3.614) Conqueror Cannon
3.615) Cyclone missile launcher
3.616) Deathstrike Cannon
3.617) Demolisher Cannon
3.618) Earthshaker Cannon
3.619) Eldar melta bombs – Eldar
3.620) Executioner pistol
3.621) Exitus pistol
3.622) Exitus rifle
3.623) Exorcist launcher
3.624) Frag grenade
3.625) Grenade Launcher
3.626) Gauss flayer – Necrons
3.627) Gauss blaster – Necrons
3.628) Gauss cannon – Necrons
3.629) Gauss Flux Arc Projector – Necrons
3.630) Hallucinogen grenade
3.631) Havoc launcher
3.632) Haywire grenade
3.633) Heavy Bolter
3.634) Heavy Gauss cannon – Necrons
3.635) Heavy stubber
3.636) Heavy webber
3.637) Hellhammer cannon
3.638) Hunter-killer missile
3.639) Hurricane bolter
3.640) Krak grenade
3.641) Mega Battle Cannon
3.642) Mega bolter
3.643) Missile launcher
3.644) Missile pods – Tau
3.645) Mole Mortar
3.646) Mortar
3.647) Needler
3.648) Neural Shredder
3.649) Photon Flash flare
3.650) Plasma grenade
3.651) Psycannons
3.652) Psyk-Out grenade
3.653) Rail gun – Tau
3.654) Rail rifle – Tau
3.655) Rad grenade
3.656) Rapier
3.657) Reaper Autocannon
3.658) Ripper gun
3.659) Sanctifier grenade
3.660) Scare grenade
3.661) Shotgun
3.662) Shuriken pistols – Eldar
3.663) Shuriken catapults – Eldar
3.664) Shuriken cannons – Eldar
3.665) Smart missiles – Tau
3.666) Smoke grenade
3.667) Sniper rifles
3.668) Sniper Weapons
3.669) Stasis grenade
3.670) Storm bolter
3.671) Stub Pistol
3.672) Tanglefoot
3.673) Tarantula
3.674) Thudd gun
3.675) Toxin grenade
3.676) Typhoon missile launcher
3.677) Vanquisher Cannon
3.678) Vibro-cannon – Eldar
3.679) Virus grenade
3.680) Vortex grenade
3.681) Web pistol
3.682) Web weapons
3.683) Webber
3.684) Whirlwind launcher
3.7) Weapons Conclusion
A numerical comparison of the two lists shows that the Warhammer 40K universe has a much wider range of weapons. The Star Trek universe has 19 types of energy weapons compared to 34 types of energy weapons in the Warhammer 40K universe. In particular, the Imperium uses a much, much wider range of melee weapons (Star Trek 8 vs. Warhammer 29). Seven of the eight Star Trek melee weapons are of Klingon or Vulcan origin. The Imperium has also tweaked many ancient melee weapons with modern technology. For example, swords have been turned into chainswords. These tweaked melee weapons are far superior to anything in the Star Trek universe. The Federation would be at a critical disadvantage in any melee situation. One could argue in a science fiction world of star ships that have energy weapons that can destroy worlds that melee combat ability is irrelevant but this is not always the case. The Warhammer 40K universe also has a much greater number of ranged weapons (Star Trek 19 vs. Warhammer 40K 84).
A superficial numerical analysis of the two lists would lead to the conclusion that the Warhammer 40K universe has far superior weapons technology. However, the Borg have developed a super bomb, multikinetic neutronic mines, that is far more powerful than anything on the Warhammer 40K list. A Borg multikinetic neutronic mines can affect an entire galaxy and destroy worlds.
The Q created Q firearms that resemble Civil War-era firearms but are so powerful their use creates super novae as a side effect. The Q firearms dwarf any weapon in the Warhammer 40K universe. Humans have used these weapons. This means that if the Federation allies itself with either the Borg or the Q and has access to Q or Borg weaponry then the Federation has the decisive edge in weapons technology. The Eldars, Necrons and Tau are not part of the Imperium and have many extremely powerful weapons that would significantly augment the arsenal of the Imperium if they allied with the Imperium against the Federation but have no weapons as decisive as the Borg’s multikinetic mines much less Q firearms.
What is not reflected in the weapons list is that Imperium has used genetic and cyborg technology to create super soldiers, the Space Marines. The Space Marines are far more powerful than any humanoid soldier in the Federation. The Space Marines have super strength, enhanced stamina, enhanced healing, enhanced durability and enhanced reflexes. They also have jump packs that enable to fly. They can carry heavy weapons and use chainswords. The Space Marines can be viewed as living weapons that have no equivalent in the Star Trek universe. Some races in the Star Trek universe such as the Angosians have attempted to create super soldiers but have not created anything close to the Space Marines. Perhaps the closest thing to an augmented humanoid in the Star Trek universe that is similar to a Space Marine would be the Borg but they have shown themselves to be slow and clumsy in close combat even if quite strong.
The Imperium soldier also has access to a wide variety of equipment when on a mission. Some gear typically carried by an Imperium soldier includes:
Armor
Auspex (similar to a tricorder but more military in function)
Cameleolin (fabric that provides camouflauge)
Frenzon ( drugs to enhance performance)
Jump pack (personal flyer)
Med pack
Personal energy shields, just called shields (similar to what the Borg have)
Teleport homer (this is built into the communicator of Federation personnel)
Imperium soldiers also carry a wide variety of weapons including melee weapons such as a chain sword.
Typically, Starfleet personnel will go on a mission with only the following gear: tricorder, communicator and phaser. This means one on one the Imperium soldier will have greater resistance to firepower due to armor and shields, superior camouflage and tactical flight capability if the soldier has a jump pack. In general, the Imperium soldier carries far more types of military equipment that give the Imperium soldier a decisive advantage in the area of equipment in addition to the advantage they enjoy in weaponry.
The Imperium uses many armored land vehicles. The Imperial Navy has a wide variety of atmospheric flyers. In terms of vehicles, the Federation has shuttle craft for atmospheric flight and that’s about it. Shuttle craft is not generally armed but can be fitted with phasers. The Federation relies heavily on transporter technology for travel rather than on vehicles but the Imperium also has teleport technology. A Federation star ship carries around four shuttles and each shuttle can fit four to six people comfortably. Transporters don’t always work. If the transporter is down then the Federation has extremely limited ability to move personnel around.
The main piece of equipment the Federation has that is important that the Imperium does not have is replicator technology. A replicator can create and recycle objects. Typically the replicator is used to create meals on a star ship. However, in a military situation the Federation could conceivably use replicator technology to make copies of any weapon or equipment they capture from the Imperium and narrow the weapons and equipment gap between the two forces. Industrial replicators can be used to reconstruct the infrastructure of an entire planet as when the Cardassians gave fifteen industrial replicators to Bajor for precisely this purpose. Overall, the approach to weapons and equipment taken by the Federation and the Imperium is very different. The Federation prefers to rely on a few very high tech weapons and equipment while the Imperium uses a much wider array of more specialized military gear.
The Federation does not practice low-tech redundancy. If a low-tech system is replaced then the previous low tech system is taken out rather than kept as a redundant system. Transporters largely replace vehicles. Phasers replace melee weapons. This can be a problem. For example, the star ship Voyager used high tech bio-neural gel packs. These gel packs are essentialy organic computers. The gel packs cannot be replicated. When the gel packs of Voyager became infected, Voyager did not have the option of using prior none organic computers to replace the gel packs. This lack of low tech redundancy may make Federation technology much more vulnerable in extended warfare situations were possibly more delicate high tech systems start to break down.
4.0) IMPERIAL NAVY VS. STARFLEET
The Imperial Navy is in charge of the star ships of the Imperium. Starfleet is in charge of the star ships of the Federation. Any war between the Federation and the Imperium would largely be a space battle between the Imperial Navy and Starfleet.
4.1) Imperial Navy
The Imperial Navy is just one of the military forces available to the Imperium. The Imperium military also includes, but is not limited to, the Imperial Guard and Space Marines that act as the main infantry of the Imperium. The Imperium needs infantry to conquer and hold territory. The most powerful class star ships of the Imperial Navy are their Battleships. A Battleship can carry crews of 25,000 to 3,000,000 persons. Battleships can be as big as eight kilometers. The Imperium consists of thousands of worlds. The Imperial Navy defends a territory far, far larger than that of the Federation.
4.2) Starfleet
Starfleet is the main military force of the Federation and does not have access to the huge and specialized infantry forces of the Imperium but instead relies on space battles and planetary bombardment to defend the Federation. The most famous star ships of the Star Trek universe are the Enterprise series which is an example of the Dreadnought class of starships. The Enterprise is the flagship of Starfleet. The Enterprise has a crew of around 500. The length of the Enterprise is 318.2 meters. I garnered this information for the Starfleet Technical Manual. The Federation has 150 planets. If you superimpose the two galaxies of the two universes and assume the galaxies are around the same size you realize that the territory of the Imperium is about eight times larger.
4.3) Conclusion
The Imperial Navy has bigger ships than Starfleet. Much bigger ships! The Imperial Navy can ferry thousands and even millions of troops in single ship versus a crew size of around 500 on the flagship of Starfleet. The Federation is a democratic and voluntary alliance of planets that abhors militaristic expansionism and therefore does not have the same need for infantry as the Imperium. The main mission of Starfleet is exploration not war! The main mission of the Imperial Navy is very much war and not exploration. The Imperial Navy is far superior militarily to Starfleet. Despite the superiority of the Imperial Navy compared to Starfleet, there are certain scenarios were Starfleet could win and this will be explored in the scenario section of this essay.
5.0) SCENARIOS
There are thousands of scenarios possible but the scenarios below are the most commonly discussed scenarios found online about a war between two science fiction universes. The lack of scenario identification ahead of such discussion is in my view the single greatest weakness of such discussions. This weakness is apparent in some of the discussion at my post about Star Trek vs. Star Wars at:
http://foxhugh.com/2008/05/21/star-trek-vs-star-wars/
That experience inspired me to create a scenario approach to the problem of war between science fiction universes. Basically a good argument can only occur if you define the terms of your argument ahead of time. I urge readers, that want to post comments about this article, to please identify which scenario they are discussing.
Scenario 1 – Federation vs. Imperium Period!
This scenario assumes that neither side receives help from super races or help from near humans that are not part of the Federation or Imperium. The Imperium has far superior numbers and this advantage alone would give the Imperium a decisive advantage. The Imperium consists of thousands of worlds including hive worlds that have huge populations far greater than any world in the Federation. The Federation consists of 150 planets.
As if this numerical advantage was not enough, the Imperium also has a much wider range of weapons and equipment at its disposal and has a decisive advantage in this area as well. Finally the Imperium has super soldiers, the Space Marines, that have no equivalent in the Federation. The Space Marines are masters of melee combat that are far, far superior to their Federation counterparts. The Space Marines are also master’s of turning war in space into melee combat. The Space Marines know how to board space ships and infiltrate heavily guarded positions. The Space Marines could for example attack Star Fleet Command in San Francisco in a commando raid and destroy the leadership of Star Fleet overnight. The Federation in turn would have little success launching a similar commando operation against Imperium targets that would be defended by Space Marines.
One could create a sub-scenario were the Imperium is invading the Federation and cannot afford to squander forces needed to defend the Imperium home territory and fields a fleet more or less of the same number of ships and men as that of the Federation. Even if numbers were equal, the superior weapons and equipment technology of the Imperium and the superiority of the Space Marines would give the Imperium a decisive advantage. Even in this sub-scenario the Imperium would win.
Scenario 2 – Federation plus Super Races minus the Q continuum vs. Imperium plus all their Super Races
The super races of the Star Trek universe decide to help the Federation. The super races of the Warhammer 40K universe decide to help the Imperium. The participation of the Federation and the Imperium becomes almost irrelevant and they are reduced to being observers of a war between super races. Probably both galaxies, maybe the Federation and Imperium themselves, almost get destroyed in the war between the super races but one side eventually wins even if at a terrible cost. There is an old African proverb: When elephants fight, the grass suffers. The super races of the Star Trek universe are more numerous. The super races of Star Trek universe do not exist in a parallel warp universe and do not have to deal with all the limitations that warp existence forces on the super races of the Warhammer 40K. If the super races are involved then the Federation wins.
Scenario 3 – All Near Humans in the Star Trek Universe vs. All Near Humans in the Warhammer 40K Universe.
This assumes mortal enemies of the same universe unite in the face of a greater threat from outside their universe. The super races of both universes decide this battle between the ants is none of their business and stay out of the war. The near humans are more powerful in the Warhammer 40K universe overall than the near humans in the Star Trek Universe. Warhammer 40K wins in this scenario.
Scenario 4 – The Q vs. the Entire Warhammer Universe
Star Trek has the Q there is nothing equivalent to the Q in Warhammer 40K. The Q are as above super races as super races are above near humans. If the Q enter into the fray against Warhammer 40K then the war can be over before the war even started. The Q can go back in time and destroy and all super races and near human races before they are even born. The Q alone can take on the entire Warhammer 40K universe. Any aid from the rest of the Star Trek universe is redundant.
Scenario 5 – Entire Star Trek Universe minus Q vs. the Entire Warhammer 40K Universe
An entire universe is assumed to be all super races and near humans of that universe united against all super races and near humans of the other universe. This is the toughest scenario to figure out since I think the super races of the Star Trek universe are superior to the super races of the Warhammer 40K universe. However, the non-Imperium near human races of the Warhammer 40K universe are more powerful than the non-Federation near human races of the Star Trek Universe. I would rather have superior super races on my side than superior near human races. The Star Trek universe wins but the conflict is a close one.
Scenario 6 – The Borg of the Star Trek Universe assimilate the Orks of the Warhammer 40K Universe.
The Orks of the Warhammer 40K universe are an intelligent species of fungi which resemble exaggerated rednecks culturally but they are actually green. They can cobble alien technology together to create incredibly ugly, Rube Goldberg type machines that nevertheless work. The Orks are assimilated by the Borg and the result is the creation of the Bork! The Bork are essentially Bizarro versions of the Borg. The Bork overrun both universes!
Conclusion
Star Trek wins in scenarios 2 and 4. Warhammer 40K wins in scenarios 1, 3, and 5. A scenario approach is a powerful conceptual tool that can also be applied to the Star Trek vs. Star Wars debate.
After I wrote the above article I ran into the following graphic presented below and as they say a picture is worth a thousand words!
WereVerse Universe Baby!
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OK first of all fox fleet? second of all the chaos gods are not the only super beings/races there the Necron C’tan their names are The Outsider, The Void Dragon, The Nightbringer and The Deceiver and thirdly the chaos gods aren’t restricted to the chaos they simply reside their if they so choose they could leave and annihilate everything but that would destroy their “entertainment” and you didn’t even list the full weapons list for either side
I bow to your superior knowledge of Warhammer 40K. I have to admit that I have not heard of the super races you bring up. What weapons did I miss?
well as for the weapons you forgot the tyranid and the orkish weapons and most variants on the bollters
Thanks for the information. I will add those weapons to the list when I get a chance.
connor the chaos gods would never be able to destroy humanit, they need human emotions to survive, they were created by humans and rely on them, read up and you’ll see that if humanity were to die so would the chaos gods, however in the end nobody would win, necrons are immortal and would just keep rebuilding every time they were destroyed and the c’tan would easily destroy anything the Q could throw at them
Chaos was created by the eldar.
You dont know s great deal about 40k do youchaos weren’t created by anyone. Chaos is a force of nature. It exists as an echo of reality. The Gods are emotion given form. Not only human but all the races of all the galaxies. Their power extends far beyond the warp, and that Imperium that your federation couldn’t fight was almost destroyed by them on a whim. You should do a bit more research before putting an article like this together, otherwise it’s just a waste of time.
The chaos Gods are technically indestructible.
They are the emotions of all mortal beings given form, not just human or Eldar, but all mortal beings.. and not just in the Milky Way galaxy, but across the entire universe and possibly multiple (unknown) universes.
They reside in the immaterium, in an ocean of time, where past, present, and future can all be viewed simultaneously. All the Gods have always existed, yet to exist, and ceased to exist; and their destruction would require the total extermination of all sentient life in all universes.
The only reason they don’t conquer the Imperium is because yes, they feed of human emotions and they don’t want this food supply to be destroyed.. in addition to constantly fighting each other for power and dominance.
If they could get their clutches into the Star Trek universe, they could potentially lead to psykers evolving amongst the mortal races of the Star Trek universe, and then through these psykers they could start to infiltrate more and more of the Star Trek universe, potentially leading to the corruption of large factions and plunging the Star Trek universe into endless, unceasing civil war just as the Imperium has had to fight for thousands of years. Imagine Khornate Klingons.
well put!
I might actaully say this guy is a trek fanboy
Q pownz chaos gods? really? nigh omnipotent beings who completely control a universe far larger than the material one? I mean Q is more poweful outside of the warp, but if he ever goes into the warp, he dead.
And superraces beat the Imperium? you smokin? Star Trek superraces like the borg and t’kon, and really any of them save the Q cannot hold a candle to the Imperium. Tkon got devastated by a supernova. That there shows how much weak and pathetic they are. Really the Imperium can do everything every Star Trek civilization can do, save for 2 or 3, but much better. Borg are plain out pathetic, when 128 megaton torpedoes 3 or 4 shot them, and the Imperium’s weaker weapons are 610 gigatons. Angosians teleportation really sounds just like any Warhammer teleporters. The dyson sphere builders would get mindfucked by the GEOM, not to mention that if 26th century federation could wreck them, so can the Imperium.
Really Warhammer wins all 5. Unless you presume Q are stronger than the Chaos gods in their dark realm, or the Emperor is in the warp, which, judging by what little we know of the Q, is not the case.
and before I forget the Q couldn’t defeat the chaos gods for there is no way to destroy them no way to stop them
There is no way to destroy the chaos gods? Even if that were so, Q has demonstrasted the ability to shrinks a Calamarian ship in Deja Q and teleports it to the palm of his hand. The Chaos gods are much more powerful than the Calamarians but Q might be able to do something similar to them, literally trap them in bottle.
yes but the whole idea that the chaos gods could be trapped is preposterous because their essence is supplied by emotions and can the Q bottle emotions? if so can the Q while fighting of 4 chaos gods also stop the emperor?
Excellent point! Can the Q bottle emotions? The Q can control emotions in sentinient beings. Couldnt controlling the emotions of the beings in the Warhammer 40K universe allow the Q to control the Chaos gods indirectly. Dont the Chaos gods basically feed on emotion? If not then the Q probably could not bottle the Chaos Gods. The Emperor is formidable but I dont think he is in the same power range as the Q.
If I remember correctly, Q not only has emotions, he’s not tremendously in control of them. He’s had no reason to guard himself against any urge or whim for eons. He might be more powerful than khorne or more? omniscient than tzeenth, but Slaanesh would eat him. Also nurgle is fucking universal entropy. I’m sure he could come up with the Q equivalent of flesh eating bacteria.
One of the contradictions of the particular Q than interacts with Picard is that he acts like a child in many respects. Is extreme extended neonatony part of the psychological development of omnipotent beings? Anyway, Q is manipulated by Picard psychologically to some extent and Picard had a love interest, a rogue archeologist, named Vash, that really know how to play Q. Yes emotion would be one of the key weaknesses of that Q on many different levels.
Actually, the Q could quite easily destroy the Chaos Gods, since WH40K canon is that they were created by the emotional backwash of the younger races (humans, eldar, etc.) into the Immaterium. And, as was mentioned earlier, the Q could easily arrange for those races to have never existed, so…
Basically kill the food supply of the chaos gods and you kill the chaos gods! A ruthless solution that would work! You know in the Marvel universe the difference between a god and a demon is wether or not the being is parasitic. Gods can often get energy from their worshippers but its an extra while demons depend on that energy to survive. The chaos gods are parasistic.
@Lee
The issue comes up that because in the Warp, time isn’t set, and so once (i.e.) Slaanesh was born, Slaanesh was always there. So, once a Chaos God was born, it’s like they were never *not* there. Time sucks in 40k.
Yikes!
Well as for the concept of discussion. chaos gods would become more powerfull due to the increase in sentinent emotions being blown around the universe, not only feeding off the imperium but also the federation.
I think the the fact that chaos god feed of emotion would be figured out pretty quickly by the Federation and they would use everything from Vulcan meditation to stuff like synthihol to control the emotion of the citizens of the Federation but it would be useless given all the other advantages the 40K universe enjoys.
It seems as if everyone has forgotten about Malal (a.k.a. Malice, who is the god of Chaos itself!). Even if the Q destroyed the other four, the other gods of the universe, and the mortal races, they would still have to deal with Malal, who feeds off Chaos. With no sentient beings in the 40k universe, there would be complete Chaos, strengthening Malal to the point of limitless power. And then if the races destroyed were replced with newer races, that would only bring back the other four and maybe newer ones as well.
I think you have come up with a scenario in which even Q losses!
I would also like to point out about the Chaos gods is that if they were in a scenario against the people of the federation, the Chaos god would just do what they always do and tempt the people of the fed to join them. During the hours heresy, many Many space marines chapter fell into temptation BY the Chaos gods including the imperium of man and eldar alike. The federation would be fighting each other if added that senario.
Someone actually broke this down in one of comments and theorized how the different races would be tempted by the different chaos gods ie Klingons would be more likely to follow a chaos god of war and ferengi a chaos god of greed.
Well put sir… ok frak the emperor he was a ploy to try to trip you up I will admit . But the Q is governed by its rule and can not do something so vast to the whole cosmos while it has nearly limitless powers it has its own self implemented limitations.
and something else i just thought of is the factor that the chaos gods are not pulling emotions from just 40k you you look in depth they are pulling them from other reality’s and the chaos gods can also alter the minds and control the emotions of beigns so the ultimate question is who is stronger the Q? or the Chaos? this is my final question to you
Maybe the chaos gods are a lot more powerful than I thought earlier
Also…. i dont see anyone speaking of the Inquisition… and “Exterminatus”… the world ending capability of man… innocent or not. Besides the Titans ppl have mentioned.
Thats true, the Inquisition and Exterminatus have not really been mentioned at all in the comments area.
Wait a minute…. is’nt the Emporer of man… also called the “God Emporer”? I believe so…
Yeah, I think you re right!
I would also like to add for the WH40k side the Primarchs (who can at the very least be considered Demi-Gods in their own right, being as they are often depicted as destroying Avatars of Khaine, etc.,), Gork and Mork (the Ork Gods), the God-Emperor of Man (who, in his prime, is arguable the most powerful being in the 40K universe (in canon defeats the Void Dragon, the most powerful of the C’tan and thus the most powerful being in the Material Realm in the Roman Era, as well as launching a psychic attack against Horus that scared off the combined panthenon of Chaos), the Old Ones, and the C’tan (the Nightbringer {who slaughters most of the C’tan and also superimposes his appearance as the form of death to all mortal races}, the Deceiver, the Void Dragon {the most powerful of the C’tan, and who can control virtually any form of technology}, and the Outsider {who currently resides in a Dyson sphere outside of the galaxy, and is reportedly manipulating the Tyranid hive fleets}; although there were once far more of them). Note the C’tan were once giant star vampires, but were given physical form by the Necron. In general, I wouldn’t say that it would change the scenario 4 (as the Q Continuum have no demonstrated upper power limit, so they are a literal deus ex machina), I think you’re selling 40K short in terms of scenario 2.
Tzeentch, in the Grey Knight novel, destroyed a planet simply by talking to Garguthaloth (said Greater Daemon drove everyone within light years insane when he appeared on the material realm), and much of the Ruinous Powers’ attention is focused on the Great Game, the interdimensional war between the Gods, as well as the presence of the Emperor of Man (who among other things like guiding the Astronomicon, soul-binding, the Emperor’s Tarot, etc, prevents the expansion of the Eye of Terror, as well as greatly reducing daemonic incursions and attacks on the Imperium. Moreover, the Imperium has a million worlds, not just thousands, with population figures in hive worlds generally in the 10-100+ billions (and there are alot of these). If the Borg and the Iconians are considered “God” Races, then surely the Necrons (and, I suppose, the Tyranids) can be as well. Necron spaceships have “inertaless” drives, which allow them to appear virtually anywhere in the galaxy, as well as access to Gauss weaponry, which in essence strip off the atoms of of molecules, bit by bit (rendering all armor and several forms of shields useless altogether). It should also be noted that the Tyranids have also devoured several galaxies before, and the Hive Fleets that the Imperium fights (into Pyrrhic victories) are merely small scout fleets (the Stark Report estimates that the Imperium would need to increase conscription by 500%, the mobilization of EVERY human in the Imperium, to even have a chance of slowing down the main fleet). The Eldar also have (well, use to) the Talismans of Vaul (the Blackstone Fortresses), which can destroy stars and planets (as well as being the only true way that non-C’tan could kill C’tan), as well as the Webway.
But now I’m rambling. In all honesty, the only two races in Star Trek that can truly qualify as “God” Races would be the Q and the Organians. The others, while having access to some fantastic technology, are nothing special. In general, both ground and naval weapon firepower in 40K is simply incomparably more powerful then in Star Trek (being that in Star Trek, there isn’t much of a ground army to speak of: no vehicles, etc.), and where they are impossibly outnumbered, (ex. there are countless trillions of Guardsmen, and millions, if not billions, die every day, the Tyranids, the Orks), production (replicators still need power to function, while there are at least hundreds of forge worlds in the Imperium dedicated to turning out lots and lots of weapons), etc. The sheer scope of this difference is stunning, and means that, again, barring no-limit omnipotents such as Q and the Organians (whom you could actually argue wouldn’t be enough to make a difference, although as I have nothing canon to gauge their upper limit, I personally won’t), 40K wins hands-down.
Thanks for the wealth of information. I didn’t know about a lot of the stuff you mentioned. You just reinforce the fact that minus the Q, Star Trek doesnt stand a chance!
i have read somewhere that it was belived that the Emperor created a warpstorm big as a planetary sistem to wipe a fleet….
ONe thing that I think should also be addressed is possibly the most important aspect of this entire article. Reguardless of how mighty the Imperium of Man might be the lack the distinct ability to adapt and create new technology. There see many many examples from the Star Trek of technology being adapted or created to solve a problem. In short, the people from the Star Trek universe are more resourceful and more creative where the Imperium is a stagnate civilization on the decline of it’s former greatness.
Also, you can easily argue that the 40K Universe is far more ruthless than any thing we see in Star Trek, which is mainly a benevolent utopian society. Even during the Dominion War the morality battles of the main characters play out by preventing plagues and such from causing the genocide of their enemies. In the face of such an overwhelming and ruthless force like the any thing from 40K what might happen if the peace loving explorers decided to put their morals away.
For example, ever think what a transporter is really capable of in Star Trek, besides being pin point accurate they have very small personal versions which are far more reliable than anything in 40k. The are examples of transporters being able to transport hundreds of people at once. You just landed a force of Marines to kill us all, why not transport them directly into space or into the depths of the planets crust, materializing in the stone itself. This can all be done from a cloaked ship, which due to the static nature of the Imperium, might never be located.
What I am trying to say is this, the people of the Federation have purposely limited thier own military technology for the benefit of peace with the civilizations. If that were to be tossed to the side, sly of their power to invent and create would be turned to stopping or destroying their aggressors.
P.S.
Almost every ship in the Star Trek universe have the ability to travel at warp speed where the ships in the 40K universe have to rely on Astrogators. This is the reason for such huge ships that carry millions of soldiers, there isn’t any other method of effectively transporting that many people from star system to star system since there are so few Astrogators. Star Trek ships are there for faster and able to out maneuver their 40k counter parts.
P.P.S.
People in the Star Trek universe are capable of time travel, there are even episodes where they prefect this to go back to a specific time and date. In fact, in Star Trek: Voyager ther is a race that actively changes the course of history to suite their purposes. The power to travel bsck in time alone is even beyond the Chaos Gods let alone being able to change history.
Dear Resv,
I think you make several valid points. The Federation has as its primary mission exploration and peaceful contact. The Defiant is their first Warship! The Imperium is a very different creature as I try to point out in the graphic I did for this page. The Imperium is also in a state of degeneracy. The Federation is not.
As you point out, the Federation has never fought using temporal manipulation as a weapon before but has run into opponents that have done just that. The Borg attempted to destroy the Federation before it was founded in First Contact. In Star Trek Voyager (Season 4, Episodes 8 & 9)the Krenim Temporal Ship used temporal weapons as their primary weapons. In theory the Federation could acquire Krenim technology and use it to great effect against the Imperium.
wow your knowledge of 40k is so bad i cant believe it, you have so many wrong thinks in your post its horrible, ill come back later and prove you 40k is superior and would crush the star trek universe.
I look forward to your comments. I of course came to the conclusion that 40K wins but the time war angle of Resv is interesting.
Uhh… I noticed Lasguns being under Star Trek and not under Wh40k.
Uhh… I noticed Lasguns being under Star Trek and not under Wh40k.
And, by the way, you seem to have failed to realise that ONE space marine could probubly wipe out an intire ship full of Borg
Can’t the Borg infect Space Marines? I guess their armor would provide a lot protection but 100 percent?
Such a stupid mistake on my part!
well, i must admit that a Space Marine would be capable of causing great damage aboard a Borg ship, but at the same time you must admit, that even the heavy armor of a Space Marine will not protect him from beeing assimilated. only the gods might know what happens if the Borg suddenly employ Space Marine Tactics against their foes. and im not just talking about the imperium
Space Marine power armor comes in many different levels of sophistication over the ages. Aegis armor is the most sophisticated and might provide adequate protection from nanite infections. The armor would have to be punctured for the Borg to insert nanites. Less sophisticated Space Marine armor would be more vulnerable to punctures. Even if the armor is punctured, the Space Marines do have enhanced physiology via the use of 19 implants. The most relevant implant for this discussion is their extra kidney.
“14.Oolitic Kidney. This red-brown and heart shaped organ improves and modifies the Marines circulatory system enabling other implants to function effectively. The Oolitic Kidney also filters blood extremely efficiently and quickly. The secondary heart and Oolitic Kidney are able to act together, performing an emergency detoxification program in which the Marine is rendered unconscious as his blood is circulated at high speed. This enables a Marine to survive poisons and gases which are otherwise too much for even the multi-lung to cope with.”
The Space Marines do not have Wolverine level immunity but maybe enough to resist some nanites ie a flesh wound. Wloverine recovered from a Brood infection so i think he would be able to resist Borg nanite infection. On the other hand he did go Zombie in Marvel Zombies. Raise your hand if you think the Brood are a thinly disguised copy of the Aliens with some Borg elements added?
the problem would be, that Borg nanites assimilate EVERYTHING, not just biological masses (except Species 8472 and their ships). even if that suicidal Space Marine would wear the most sophisticated Armor, the moment a Borg gets him with an Assimilator-Tube (dunno how thats spelled, im a german) its game over, cause the nanites would assimilate his armor as well as him. even IF those implants you mentioned would kick in, because that renders the Marine unconscious he would fall victim to many more Borg that try to assimilate him. in the end: 1 Marine cannot wipe out a borg ships crew. period!
a Squad of 4 of them might be able to.
2 equipped for close combat – Chainsword + Plasma Pistol
1 equipped with a Plasmacannon and
1 with a Bolter (or maybe a Librarian instead)
You are right. In “Drone” on Voyager a Borg assimilates the Doctors mobile emitter minus any biological mass so the nanites would be able to assimilate the armor.
to be correct: due to a transporter malfunction, some nanites of Seven get into the emitter and start assimilating it, later on assimilate a scientific laboratory of the Voyager and with some genetic info, stolen from a Crewmember, those nanites create a 29th century Borg drone, with the emitter as its core. why the emphasis on the century? well if im not very wrong, Voyager plays around 24th century, the emitter was created by a guy that used 29th century tech during those episodes where Captain Braxton and his Time-Ship caused the Voyager to travel back in time to the 21st century. Sorry if i offended you, but i just had to correct this.
back to the subject:
as i said before, wiping out a fully manned borg ship is an impossible task for a single Space Marine, they have to at least work as a group of 4 to accomplish that. Marines are great warriors, the best humanity (imperium) can offer, but they are by no means immortal gods. even they make mistakes and die. Just as Sgt Cyrus in the game W40k: DoW2 states: We are the Emperors Angels of Death, but we too will die one day.
But how are they going to find an input to inject the nanites? Power armor’s outer shell isn’t computerized or even motorized. Its just slabs of energized plate metal, under which is the 40k equivalent of chainmail that also forms a vacuum seal. Under that are motorized components etc.
Also with power armor a space marine is considerably stronger than data, who was able to snap a drone’s neck effortlessly in First contact. With a space marine’s stamina and the armor’s servos, even without other weapons, one marine could just plow through drones for weeks.
Of course, the borg have assimilated countless interstellar civilizations culture and tech. I’m sure they’d eventually figure out to just shoot him with something.
The detail you have provided about the power armor is very important. I don’t see how nanites are going to get past sort of armor! The Borg are of course a fictional construct and as such do not behave in a “real” life manner. Part of the plot is them lumbering around and injecting humans one by one in a post modern zombie dance. Logically, the borg would have multiple injection/infection systems including some sort of air borne system that would be like a gas attack but the marine armor could resist even than since the armor has a self contained oxygen supply. Logically the borg would then develop a two pronged attack. A corrosive gas followed by a nanite gas but how much fun would that be to watch? Well actually it might be fun to watch come to think about it but it is a departure from the standard Borg plot line.
normally, to board unknow ships (like the borgs one) are sent terminator space marines, that are very experienced (being awarded by terminator status is a huge privilege) and wear terminator armor, wich are bigger, thicker and are capable of extreme powerful close combat abilities (storm hammer and shield or powerfist) stormbolters (wich basically are two bolter linked together)/heavy flamers or an assault cannon (a 6 barrell close combat hmg with a rate of fire of thousand/second) mounted on forearms and sometimes they have rocket launcher pad mounted or a short range teleportation device
you should notice that a standard bolter ammo is a cal .75 self propelled bolt wich explode when enter something (they are basically micro rpg), there are several kind of bolt, each with their purpose, for example:
Standard bolts:Standard bolts comprise the following components: outer casing, propellant base, main charge, mass reactive detonator cap, depleted deuterium core, diamantine tip. The calibre of the standard round .75 and it possesses a super-dense metallic core
hellfire rounds: instead of explosive ammo, they are filled with mutagenic acid that get pumped in the target via hundred of needles
Inferno Bolts:Designed to immolate their targets and destroy them with superheated chemical fire. The deuterium core is replaced with an oxy-phosphorus gel, known as Promethium. It should be noted that the Chaos Space Marine Thousand Sons have their own similarly-named but unrelated type of inferno bolts, which are actually psychically-bound slugs that release arcane energies; these slugs explode with sorcerous energies upon impact
Tempest Bolts: Incorporate tiny plasma shock generators that emit electromagnetic and thermal radiation when the shell detonates. Produced only on Mars, Tempest shells are noted as particularly effective against machines and mechanical targets.
specifics of the bolts are taken from lexicanum.com
i don’t think that borg can adapt on phisical damage, but they could adapt very well on guardsman lasgun
I forgot about the terminator space marines!
Due to my near fanatical faith to the both of these, I can agree that it would be a Incredibly close battle, but in the end, the logic for the 40k universe would win out. In the rare event that All the races agreed to fight as one, the imperium would just add the cannon fodder of the imperial guard as a backup. All you would really need to use would be the Necrons, the Tyranids, and the Eldar.
The Necrons, with their terrifying guass weapons and their C’tan gods, could easily destroy all of the borg, as they are simple machines, and they would need to be organically modified, and that is with the necrons agreement to undergo the surgery. They could also use the Nightbringer to destroy life in their galaxy, as his sustinance is the life force of millions. Just park his LIVING METAL STARSHIP above a planet, and he would devour the lifeforce of countless billions. If the Q came around to the devastation, they might throw their ideals out the window, but for war to be declared, their governmental system would be too slow to respond (But if the system reacted fast, then the war would be over before it began).
Continuing my rant, take the Tyranids. They destory worlds in a systematic approach. with the death of each world, the hive fleets would grow larger, as the biomass would be absorbed and recycled. The genestealer cults would draw the hiveships to the most populus worlds, and there would be little intervention. After all, the Q allowed the borg to develop, didn’t they?
Finally, the smallest race in 40k, the Eldar, would be pivital to the end of the Star Trek universe. The Eldar have specialized warriors, who each has an undying lord, who will always return, no matter how many times he has been killed. They also have the “Ghost Warriors,” giant, psychic/mechanical warriors who have been brought back from the dead. the gun of the Wraith Guard rip the target into two or more dimensions, and the Wraith Lords are towering behemoths of millenia of knowledge.
One more thing that everyone forgot are the Titans, huge mechanical war machines of pure destruction, and every race in 40k (Except the tau an maybe the necrons) uses. there are over 4000 of them in the imperium alone, and each can be thousands of feet high. this alone might just win the war on land.
Again, this is only if the Q government react too slowly, or if they dont even react at all. Thank you.
i agree for the most part with what you are saying, i just always thought of th Q ad being like powerfully children they do not show the wisdom that would normal be associated with a race whose powes is unlimited, so tha always made me think of the Q more asvery powerfully but not ALL powerful. the Q show on many occasion that they have godlike powers but lack that godlike wisdom this ia the only reason i think the Q are much less powerful then they claim …40k wins
Absolutely great article. Heres my thoughts: =)
I really doubt the Borg would stand a chance if the Orks started a Waaagh! Also…what about the Imperial Inquisition? =( Exterminatus.
Fun fact: Imperial Space Marines are huge, and so are their weapons; A Bolter is around 3-5 ft long.
Glad you enjoyed the article. In my last scenario I posit that the Borg assimilate the Orks creating the Bork! The Bork have characterestics of both the Borg and Orks and are essentially Bizzaro world versions of the Borg and the Bork rule all! The Space Marines are fantastic visually. Like Judge Dredd, who is already over the top, but as you say even bigger and badder! Totally different aesthetic as those puny superheroes like Superman and Spiderman with their spandex and not even a utility belt like Batman. Just because you have super powers doesn’t mean some gear wouldn’t be handy. Why doesn’t Superman carry a disintegrator that is especially effective at destroying Kryptonine. How about a vial of nanobots that do nothing but turn giant masses of kryptonite into something inert. The Kryptonite goes in one end and comes out as something harmless out the other. The nanobots only eat Kryptonite and stop reproducing when the Krptonite is gone. Superman could use the disintegrator on small pieces and the nanobots on the big pieces. Hey this idea is a post!
Real heroes have gear! Big gear! Is it any coincidence the Judge Dredd and Warhammer 40K both have British origins? Or should that be kit? Is “kit” more British English and “gear” more US English?
In a straight up fight between the Imperium and the Federation, the Federation would not only lose, it’d lose badly and quickly. The firepower levels between the two is just so vast that the Federation can’t possibly hope to compete. In all honesty, a single battleship could lay waste to the entire Federation, nevermind the full force of the Imperial Fleet, which numbers anywhere from hundreds of thousands to millions of ships. By contrast, Ron Moore stated that when thinking about fleet sizes in DS9, the writers assumed that Starfleet had about 30,000 ships. So if one assumes that the Imperium has about one million ships, Starfleet is already outnumbered 33-to-1.
Now think about those tightly packed Federation fleets we saw in the various battles in DS9. A Nova Cannon is a weapon with a blast radius the size of the Moon and capable of inflicting damage in the PETATON range. A single Nova Cannon shell fired into the midst of one of those densely packed Starfleet task forces would annihilate it almost immediately. And bear in mind that ships in 40k are designed to withstand those levels of firepower in return. Not for seconds. Not for minutes. But for days. Space battles in the 40k universe often go on non-stop for days, maybe even weeks before one ship is destroyed. So imagine how monstrously resistant the shields on an Imperial ship has to be to be able to resist that level of firepower over the course of several days. So in comparison to that, how much firepower could the Federation possibly muster up in return that could do so much as scratch the paint job on an Imperial Navy ship, much less bring one down?
Then there’s the issue of speed. Voyager, one of the fastest ships in Starfleet service, can cover approximately 3 light years a day. The slowest ships in Imperial service are capable of covering 1,000-4,000 light years in a day. Think about that. The Federation spans 8,000 light years, so it’d take Starfleet’s fastest ships seven YEARS to get from one end of the Federation to the other, while it’d take the Imperium’s slowest ships two to eight DAYS to get across one end of the Federation to the other. So Imperial ships can literally strike anywhere they want without Starfleet being able to intercept them or do anything to stop them. How long could the Federation possibly survive when they’ve got Imperial starships striking at worlds at will, hitting worlds on one side of the Federation, and then hitting worlds on the other side? The Federation would fall apart within days. Not that it matters, though, because even if a full fleet of ships caught up to an Imperial ship, they wouldn’t be able to stop it.
Point is, a handful of Imperial Navy ships could absolutely lay waste to the Federation, nevermind the full power of the Imperium. They’ve got the speed to reach Earth, Andor, Vulcan, and every other important world in the Federation before Starfleet can mass its strength, and the firepower to annihilate the defenses of each world and glassing each one of those planets. And once they’re done that they can move on to the rest of the Federation and pick it off at their leisure. And even if Starfleet does eventually mass, they’ll never be able to catch up to the Imperial ships. Doesn’t matter if they do, though, as the Imperial ships may engage them just to make their victory complete. And if that happens, Starfleet is done for, as their combined firepower won’t be enough to bring down a single Imperial ship, let alone a squadron of them, while they’ll be blasted apart in no time.
As for the Borg, while they’re tougher than the Federation, they’re still nowhere near the order of power which the Imperium has. The Imperium never even has to see a Borg drone in order to annihilate them. Although regarding the Space Marines Vs. Borg issue, think back to all those confrontations with the Borg. The Starfleet crewmen invariably only ever got assimilated because the Borg adapted to their phasers, becoming immune to them. That allowed the normally slow moving Borg to get close enough to assimilate them. That, however, wouldn’t be an issue with Space Marines. The Borg have only ever shown an ability to adapt to energy weapons, not physical attacks. That means that bolter fire would tear right through them and, being unable to adapt to that, the Borg would die in droves without ever getting near the Space Marines. Just as they died when fighting Starfleet until they eventually adapted to their phaser fire. So the likelihood of asssimilating any Space Marines, much less in numbers large enough to make a difference, aren’t very good.
Though as I said, the Imperium has no real reason to send a squad of Space Marines aboard a Borg ship, when they can just blast it apart with their ships guns.
Great commentary! I always get the best commentary at this post. I of course agree with your analysis.
It’s an unfair fight, because it’s anachronistic. Latest episodes of Star Trek = 31st century. Warhammer 40k = 40,000+!
It would be like a fight between the modern US and Rome, but even less of a fair fight. Even with the warhammer 40k universe having regressed a bit.
Good point. Also both sci-fi worlds posit a future were a technological singularity does not happen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity I might be able to believe such a singularity does not happen in a hundred years but not a thousand years as Star Trek predicts and I would be amazed if humans, human society, etc.would be so similar toin ten thousand plus years from nowin a 40K future ( is my math right?). However, certain assumptions are made for aesthetic reasons not futuristic plausability reasons.
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Well, in 40k its suggested that, 1: There was nearly one, but humanity managed to avert it in a big war with the “iron men”.
2. The Eldar did create a technological singularity using their psych-oriented technology. The result was Slaanesh.
Good stuff! If the human race were to survive lets say even a hundred years, then based on the exponential growth of technology, transhuman beings would be part of the landscape. After a 1,000 years? They might be beyond our recogntion. The best treatment of this topic is not in the Star Trek universe or Warhammer 40K universe but in the Orion’s Arm universe: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/492d6aa0a549a
30l-31k is the time of the Great Crusade. The Tyranids were not as well developed, the Tau were a non-entity, more of the Necrons were slumbering and there were no Chaos Space Marines. That is probably countered by the existence of the advanced races and other branches of humanity that were wiped out at this time. Otherwise the 40k universe was about as powerful at this time and The Emperor’s forces while numerically inferior to their current strength were more prone to innovation.
One of the 20 Space Marine Legions would do the trick, and they would not come alone.
I am sooo impressed by comments at this post!
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this is not entirely true, the army’s of the Imperium were even stronger in the 31st century. first the emperor was still alive not to mention all of the primarchs and space marines deployed by the tens of thousands. second this was a pre-Horus heresy, this means that all of humanity was on the same page and never had to worry about internal strife. third this was before the dark age of technology, in this era humanity had the capability to construct entire legions of titans and other supper heavy tanks. i could go on for quite a bit longer but you get the idea
but yes the imperium would most likely obliterate any race that could be classified as its star trek counterpart.
Good point. Obviously the level of power of both the Imperium and Federation goes up and down over time. The history of the Imperium in ficiton is vast. The history of the Star Trek universe basically focuses on Classic and TNG and a character like Spock can live long enough to span this entire history.
You’re wrong on two points. One, the Imperium was founded in the 31st millennium, not the 31st century. Second, the Age of the Imperium is AFTER the Dark Age of Technology, which lasted from the 18th to 23rd millennium.
Aside from that, though, you’re right. The Imperium of the 31st millennium would absolutely devastate any and every power in the Star Trek universe, and could probably smash them all at once. Only omnipotent or near omnipotent beings like the Q or the Organians would be able to take them.
It’s possible that the technological singularity did happen in 40k. That may be what’s now called The Dark Age of Technology.
OOOOOh great response! Yeah the singularity happened and just went kablooey. There was an ultimate battle between the ascended with 1,000 plus IQs using computer technology, genetic engineering and technologies beyond our understanding. I like to think of myself as a futurist above and beyond being a SF fan and I think in the “real’ world the chances of the human race being around even a 100 years plus from now are very small but if we did last another 100 plus years then it would be because of the application of transcendental humanism to enable something more or less humanoid to survive all the problems we face and this society would be as hard for us to understand as it is for dogs to understand us or worse ants trying to understand us. But dogs and especially insects can kill humans so their might be a similar balance of power between ascended humanoids and baseline humanoids and the baselines won in the 40k universe.
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just thoght i would add one more weapon in the imperiums arsenal wich is virus bombs wich can decompose the population of a planet in a matter of hours or even minutes which can be followed up by the atmosphere being set alight due to the high amounts of flammable gas being given of by the decomposition of the planets population, so planets dont even need to be invaded, they can just be virus bombed from space.
so lets say that to decompose an entire planets population takes half an hour and the federation has 150 planets if one fleet was sent to each one using the impirial fleets supirior speed all of the federation planets could be wiped out in just over 4 days depending on how fast the ship was.
Not to dismis the virus bomb but Star Trek in the movie Nemesis introduced Thalaron radiation which is a biogenic weapon. The stuff is obviously an attempt to introduce something that acts like biological or chemical warfare but even more high tech than anything we can imagine. Actually its kind of a cross between a neutron bomb (it only consumes organic matter leaving buildings undamaged) and some sort of biological in that microscopic amounts are dangerous. So the Star Trek can match the virus in terms of lethality but its a numbers game. The Imperium just has too many ships and too many worlds so the Imperium is going to be able to kill the whole Federation in 4 days if your math is correct but the Federation cannot deliver the same sort of counter punch.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Nemesis
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Thalaron_radiation
feel free to check my maths
I think that a restored Emperor backed up by the 4 chaos gods and the C’tan gods and maybe the Ork gods could stand a chance to Q. I’m not saying they will win but they stand a chance. The eye of terror where the chaos roams freely has absolutely no logic so in terms of capabilities they would be equal to Q who is supposed to be able to do anything.
And in terms of raw power in can’t be said cause all chaos gods fight each other always and barely affect the physical realm, and the Emperor fights them as well, keeping other demons out and keeping the beacon working for FTL travel.
And he does this in his deplorable state being basically tortured to an extent that would break any normal human for 10k years, something that I doubt Q could bare without wetting his pants. And the way he got this way is cause he fought Horus ,the only primarch that he raised as a child personally rather then recovering them as adults, so he was holding back a LOT while this guy was backed by the chaos gods combined; and in the end he had to throw away all his compassion to be able to kill him and he was wounded badly when he did that.
Well the way he succeeded to kill him was also because another primarch Sanguinarius dented his armor but in the end if had gone from the start full-power he wouldn’t had gotten hurt. Oh by the way he can also stop time he does that once to talk to a guy, but rather than talk he took the dudes knowledge by ripping his soul and then putting it back while doing his usual torture.
Well the C’tan I don’t know if they can do much against Q cause they are physical entities of great power but still physical, but I think they might make a difference. The Nightbringer made all living beings fear dead expect the Orks, the Void Dragon controls technology and was beaten by the Emperor, The Outsider ate hundreds of other C’tans and became insane and now is an allegory to Cthulhu, you know the type of dude that when he wakes up you’re screwed without a slim chance of a doubt, the Deceiver may have a chance to make a foreseeable difference by making the entire race of Q to go to war to each other, since he made the necrotyr do suicide an mass and become his servants and convinced some other C’tan to eat each other and manipulated wars for his objectives and other stuff like that. I claim he could do this cause Picard who is a normal human was able to sway them to let humanity alone, so they can be manipulated which is an action at which this guy is a master, and the episodes where I saw them they looked like arrogant self-important Idiots with high-power so they look perfect candidates for manipulation:D
The Ork gods seems to have the most raw power and that they can never truly beaten and they love to fighting like all the orks,but from what I know they never actively did something other than being worshiped by fighting. Maybe they’re the reason why orks don’t fear death when Nightbringer affected all other races, so they probably have some power that could be useful.
Well in conclusion I think the Emperor with the chaos gods would do the heavy fighting and the other gods would support them and they might win, not certain but I think they have a chance. I admit I’m a little subjective cause I think Q is an annoying faggot that i would love to kill then revive and kill him again and torture him in between the slow deaths. Sorry for swears but I hate characters that even allude of deciding the fate humanity like we’re some toys. The monsters of wh40k might kill us but they act like they give us some respect rather than that Q smug.
Your text rules! Your text will be included into the main text!
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Wow! Fantastic answer! So who out there is going to make the anime video we are all waiting: The Q vs. the Chaos Gods!
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I read your article and I like it. I feel it is mildly flawed in its catagorization of various races in the 40k universe. Also various weaponry that was not included makes a HUGE difference in how things would play out. As such i won’t comment on your conclusions as I feel it would be inapropriate. Also I did not read through all the comments as I don’t really want to even though they are probably interesting and valid discussion points.
One thing to mention on the Chaos god Slaanesh. When it was born, Billions and billions of eldar(possibly other races too) Died and had their souls sucked out accross the entire universe. Thats alot of power that needs to be considered.
Some weapons you exlcuded were the vortex weapons the imperium has. Weappons with the power to destroy entire solar systems. Essentially black hole technology.
You said the imperium has thousands of worlds, not Millions of worlds. The imperium is so large it is not possible to count the number of persons. Whats even more shocking is there are even more orks than humans and Just as many Tyranid(possibly) as orks.
I also didn’t notice any mention to the psychic aspect to the war between universes.
as for misclassification of super beings I’d say If necrons and spacemarines aren’t super, than the the borg can’t be a super being either. Something liek the Q or the Organians are clear super races, but several others really are not.
One final thing i just realized was I don’t recall seeing anything about the religous nature of why The imperium is the way it is. When you consider the fact the imperium is driven by the absolute will of the Emperor from a religous stand point you notice that They absolutly will not give up until every single last one of them is dead.
Glad you liked the article. Thank you for your analysis! You should read the comments. Some of the comments are articles in their own right. I do consider the comments as part of the text. The quality level of the comments in this post is really high. One thing I have learned from all the comments is that the 40K universe is just a lot more complicated than I realized and the Imperium has all therse weapons and resources I was not aware of. At this point I would revise my conclusions about scenarios 2 & 5 and decide that the 40K universe wins in these scenarios as well. I also probably underestimate a lot of the races in the 40K universe and probably should reclassify some of them as super races as you point out. As to typos. WordPress is free for me and I hate saying anything negative about a service that is sooooo fantastic and free but a spell checker in the comment boxes would be nice. I would use it if it were there. And yes I know that I can write the comments in Word and then copy and paste it to the comments box but who really does that?
and whoops i have alot of typos xP
Just wanted to say what started out as a few things but turned out to be a bit more.
Firstly and this really puts a lid onto the whole arguement of who wins and makes it useless. While the Q may not have the power to wipe out the whole of the imperium, they do have the power of time travel and could travel back to before the emperor was born and stop it from happening all together and therefore really change what could happen in the future. Alternatively they could go back to the begining of the human race and stop it from evolving altogether. Instead of humans it could have been sloths or snails that became the dominant species on terra. With the power of the Q, anything could have happened.
I am of the opinion that the chaos gods are invincible because they were spawned and are pure emotion.
Khorne is any feeling of hate or anger or rage that anyone or anything anywhere has ever felt. If someone in one tiny corner of a galaxy gets angry because he dropped the TV remote then khorne can feel it and is happy because someone is angry.
Nurgle represents peoples want to be immortal, to be remembered, to stave off death for even another day. Even animals have a want to live, this want feeds nurgle.
Tzeentch is a grand schemer and is always planning some sort of change even if it is only for the sake of change. He also likes order to everything so its an orderly change I suppose. We as humans make plans, we betray, we scheme. Pack animals have a heirarchy system dominated mostly by the alpha male and when a younger male attempts to usurp the position, tzeentch smiles because something could change.
The youngest chaos god Slaanesh only came into being after the fall of the elder, they became so decadent that this somehow created a rift in space time itself and created the eye of terror which I believe is a direct gate to the warp. If a bloke looks at a chick and thinks “wow, she has a great pair of…eyes” then slaanesh feeds off this lustful thought.
Now even if the Q wiped out everything organic and I’m talking EVERYTHING, humans, dogs, cats, trees, beetles, everything. They still wouldn’t be able to destroy the chaos gods because the Q are still affected by emotion that the chaos gods can feed off. If the chaos gods had a maximum range to their feeding then they could potentially be killed via starvation but as far as I know there is no max range. The want to live from khorne, tzeentch, and slaanesh may even feed nurgle but the problem is that we don’t know. If the Q decided to go suicidal and destroy time, space, and all dimensions that ever have, do, and will exist then they could take out the chaos gods that way maybe. But then yeah, that is the end of the start of everything and we get into paradoxes where if the Q destroyed all of time then they wouldn’t have been around to evolve to the point where they could destroy it and hence paradox.
Ok, now to some proper arguements.
The Imperium of Man was built around a universe literally full of hostile forces so it would be understandable that they have to adapt to such hostile forces with armies of their own. There is very minimal real exploration happening in the 40k universe as most resources go to the defence of the imperium.
The Federation was constructed mostly through peaceful means, through diplomacy and the exploration and colonisation of uncharted worlds. They weren’t always fighting tooth and nail to take a planet and often negotiated with the natives for co-habitation. The imperium would never do this, if there is a sentient native species on a planet and they are of no use then they get destroyed.
This is mostly my point, the imperium was forced to become militaristic (spelling?) in order to expand. The federation use more peaceful means to expand and so are less reliant on military forces.
I’m told that a majority of new technology and inventions come from something that the military has had a purpose for. The internet for example, was initially used for communication between military bases to co-ordinate military things and such. Now look at it, the public got its hands on it and while it is still used to communicate, it is no longer just for military use. Hell, even something as simple as cricket pads. Long ago when people were beating each other with big sticks and rocks, someone came up with the idea use strands hair or seawead of something to tie a piece of treebark to his body for protection against such attacks, and then he picked up a stick and beat the other people and won because he had padding to protect himself. Years later these blokes are playing a game where you throw a ball and another person has to hit it as far as they can. The hitter is sick of getting injured and has an idea to strap some padding to himself and suddenly cricket pads are born. A military idea being put to use by the public for non-military means. The cricket pad example is fairly simple but thats about all I could think of at 11:30 at night so it will do for now.
Now if the federation had put as much research and funding into military projects as the imperium did then they would have slightly less chance of loosing.
So, as I have said, if the federation was put into as many hostile situations earlier on as the imperium was then they could have turned out different.
Unfortunately I was never really very good at English at school so some of what I have said may just be me repeating myself.
In conclusing what I’ve been trying to say is that in my opinion this is really an unfair comparison. If you had compared the Star Trek Federation to the Star Wars Empire then the fight would have been a bit less one-sided but this was your essay so the subject was your choice.
Wow, I am so sorry for anyone who decides to read all of that.
Oh! You know sooner or later you are going to read the comments!
Great comments! Actually the time travel thing was dealt with in the comments section that I know you are going to read sooner or later. The simple reason I did not compare Star Trek and Star Wars with the same amount of detail is because its been done to death! I did write a very small post that takes a different approach than most articles about this topic:
http://foxhugh.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/star-trek-vs-star-wars/
I like to go where no one has gone before on this blog! 🙂
I like the article but disagree about certain things.
The Tyranid and Necron (and their C’tan masters) are more super races than ordinary races, the Necron’s FTL technology is the absolute best just short of instantaneous teleportation to other galaxies, and their weaponry is such that their fleets could tangle with the Borg easily. Not to mention that the Necron are about 60,000,000 years old and their C’tan masters came into being shortly after the universe itself did so. The Tyranid are not simply giant insects either, they are actually more like the borg, their gargantuan fleets act as super organisms that completely strip planets of all life and absorb any useful genetic code into themselves, and traverse many if not countless galaxies. So they really are more on par with super races.
You completely forgot to list the Tau as a near human race for WH40k, even though you listed their weapons.
And finally a minor thing but one I will bring up nonetheless, The Q aren’t exactly compatible with the WH40k universe, as time travel does not exist in WH40k.
You present a persuasive argument that the Tyranis and Necron do in fact belong in the super races category. Yeah the Tau belong in the near human list and thats just an out and out mistake on my part. The time travel issue keeps coming up. If one assumes the Q can do time travel in the 40k universe then obviously this would give them a decisive advantage if the Q invade the 40k universe. This of course cannot be assumed there may be fundamental aspects of the physics of the 40k universe that do not allow this. However if the 40k universe invades the Star Trek universe then time travel can be used as a weapon by the Q within the confines of the Star Trek universe.
Actually, the emperor is a psychic singularity and represents the ascent of mankind to godhood or at least a Q-level of existence. As a singularity he’s not bound by linear time. Although he might be a stalled singularity, or he might just be a corpse, or he might be fully manifested and just be choosing to manifest as something confusing in this current point in spacetime. They’ve left the precise nature of the emperor vague, as is appropriate for a Christ-like messiah figure.
The emperor is powerful but Q level? I don’t know.
Yeah, dunno about Emperor being Q level. The problem is, power of the Q is not governed by a realm, e.g. the Warp. Which makes that invasion scenario very sticky, because power in 40k IS measured as a function of how much Warp-influence you have. The Emperor is hindered by the rules, whatever they may be.
This issue has come up before. Conversely how will the lack of a warp in the Star Trek universe effect Warhammer 40K beings dependent on the warp who come to the Star Trek universe.
That’s not too much of an issue, though, because you can get away with saying that Humanity discovered the Warp in a later millennium (Warp Drives were M30 and the Warp itself was discovered sometime between M3 and M30 – ish), and since Imperial history of what happened before M30 is woeful at best, technically this could be a ‘go back in time’ scenario. Stretching it, I know, but you could get away with it.
I didn’t see our exchange at the page in the last 48 hours. Thats kind of weird. Anyway great response and hereby do create the new Star Trek vs. Warhammer 40K army and you are promoted to the rank of squad leader! We don’t skip ranks in this army!
Umm….. the i would like to make clear that it would be impossible for the warp to be ‘discovered’ by humanity in M3-M30 as during the dark age of technology (ie. before the Emperor’s reign and the M-notations denoting the year of his reign) humanity spread via the warp and the period of time that this went on for is unknown. The reason the Emperor began ruling humanity and beginning the Imperium is because of the age of strife which occurred after the dark age of technology and was the result of a multitude of warp storms that rendered travel through the warp impossible and thus ending the human empire that had previously existed. which basically meas they had warp travel in the 40k since, well before M3 as M3 means the third millennium of the Emperors reign.
They have also defined the emperor as well. he is the combined souls of the ancient shaman that used to guide humanity who all combined their souls when the warp was beginning to get ‘nasty’ just before the chaos gods had completely taken shape. The emperor is thus a very wise man who has guided humanity throughout the millenniums in the shadows up until the end of the age of strife when he decided that humanity needed a solid figure head. He is not some manifestation of humanity or some warp singularity.
And another thing on the greater daemons dount usually possess people…. if they do use a phsyker they usually turn them into a warp portal that they crawl through. Other than that they are summoned by Chaos worshipers and can manipulate their form at will once they have a solid grip on reality.
You are indeed the 40K Lore Master!
one correction to my own rant is the date for the discovery of warp travel. It is still definitely much before M30 but after a bit of digging I found that the Impeium was founded in that Millennium. Although it could indeed have been as early as M3.
“And finally a minor thing but one I will bring up nonetheless, The Q aren’t exactly compatible with the WH40k universe, as time travel does not exist in WH40k”
Actually there is a instance where time travel is possible. All warp-capable Imperial ships use Warp as medium for their interstellar travel. Warp as such is an unpredictable at best and horrifyingly random at its worst. Therefore sometimes ships can enter warp and arrive at their destination before they have even started the trip! Also, it works vice-versa, as ships could be stranded for years, if not centuries in the warp, thinking – Oh it is a 7 day trip! – ie. Damocles crusade
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gorgon_%28Hive_Fleet%29#.TtS-ZFaJs5I – Last paragraph.
To conclude time travel in WH40K universe not only exists but is a fairly common and normal thing in space travel.
Thanks for the comments!
Interesting analysis. I feel like Necrons should really go into the super races category, however, simply because they are so technologically advanced that one of their smaller cruisers can get through Mars’ entire defense systems (the amt of firepower a shield could take to do that with one ship is…well…I don’t know any words strong enough to describe it), so on and so forth. Also, their gods are actually invincible, as has been explored in Mechanicum (Horus Heresy Novel) and Nightbringer (Ultramarines novel). All in all, this is a pretty coherent analysis, good write up. You should do Warhammer 40k vs Mass Effect, too, haha.
people, may i ask has anyone metioned the titans of the imeperium? i mean their massive war mashines which can level a city in less than an hour, so i admit they’d be no help in a space combat but on the ground the fedration have nothing which could even being to match their fire power, and i’m a massive treky and a warhammer 40k plaer
The Star Trek universe doesn’t really deal with ground forces very much unlike Warhammer 40k whose sourcebooks go into this aspect of war in loving detail. The Classic Trek show kind of suggested that the Federation pretty much handled ground situations with orbital bombardment. Of course the Federation was shown stunning gangsters (Season 2 Episode 17) from space with incredible accuracy so the natural argument that air power alone doesn’t win wars could be brushed aside to some extent. Maybe super sophisticated air power would work and you might have some brass in our airforce that believe this. However, pg. 47 of the more or less recent The Dominion War Sourcebook: The Fires of Armagaddon (DS9) states that Federation mechanized forces have assault skimmers, phaser tanks and other ground vehicles. This section also mentions special forces such as the Starfleet Rangers and 3rd Andorian Battalion. The same sourcebook also provides a lot of detail about Romulan (pg. 58), Klingon (pg. 54) and Dominion (pg. 66) ground forces. The big point is that the Federation is basically behind other aliens in the Star Trek universe when it comes to ground force equipment. I mention this because there is a paupacity of stuff about ground forces in the Star Trek universe. There are literally over a dozen sourcebooks with detailed descriptions of the star ships but nothing about ground forces. This contrasts with the Star Wars universe as well! Orbital bombardment will be ineffective against sophisticated foes like Klingons, Romulans and the Dominion since they will have counters to such a tactic including ground force shielding and driving out Star Fleet from the air leaving their superior ground forces to win the day. I think the lack of ground force description in the Star Trek universe is basically due to a lack of cheap CGI when the universe was created. Space battles between two to three ships was relatively easy to show with models but imagine trying to show a futuristic ground war way back in the sixties! A ground battle with one or two tanks would not be beliavable. Star Wars; The Clone Wars clearly shows that current technology is up to the task and maybe this is a natural extension of the Star Trek Universe.
So Paramount maybe your next sourcebook should be Star Trek: Ground Forces. Break it down by alien type and provide a history of the evolution of the ground forces of each aliens but most of all produce beautiful schematics of the vehicles. This is also an excuse to get into the Melee weapons of all the major aliens of Star Trek.
ps please forgive the rubish spelling i have dislexya, think thats how you spell it
No sweat!
fair enough haha,
and my i advise your reaserch the imperitor war titan (that may be the wrong spelling), its basicly a mountin size walker, with massive cannons. agreed they fedration probably would be able to take one down with orbital bombardments, but with its void sheilds, it would have probably already reduced all the fedration out post to rubble
Totally awesome that the comments for this article stretches for over a year.
Anyhow, the Imperium has explorerers similiar to what the Federation has, these are called Rogue Traders. These men and women each wield power equal to at least that of a captain of a starship in the Imperial Navy in that they each has at least one warp flight capable vessel, ie some form of warship. Wealthy and successful Rogue Traders has fleets of starships, and their wealth is then measured in the resources of entire worlds that they have discovered and conquered in the name of the Emprah.
So to conclude, not only do Rogue Trader boldly go where none has gone before, they beat the crap out any Xeno(alien)/lost human civilization they think they can beat and take their stuff to. And if they currently do not possess the might to beat them, they negotiate trade agreements with them instead.
Yet one more reason the Imperium wins! The comments are indeed quite impressive!
I’m curious about a couple of missing points on the Star Trek side of the debate… mainly weapon and sensor range. As I understand it, both weigh heavily in Star Trek favor; combined with their ability to wage war while in warp means the Imperium would never have a target to shoot at, regardless of how many gun ports they have. Just ask the Iraqis during Desert Storm, who’s tanks couldn’t even fire back because the A1A2 had superior range and targetting. And then there’s cloaking technology…
Now if I were the Federation, I’d simply set up a secret automated factory churning out drones. Slap a warp drive, an A.I. pilot and a cloak in it, along with whatever warhead was used to cause a star to go nova (DS9 episode), and then sit back and watch it replicate drone after drone ad nauseum.The Imperium wouldn’t even see them coming, they’d just wonder why their suns are blowing up one by one… while I hunker down and spend the rest of my resourses on planetary defenses large enough to shoot down anything before they get into firing range. The beauty of it is, even if the Imperium were to overwhelm and destroy the Feds, they’d still be doomed. :p
Dunno about either of those points, and if they’re valid at all. Weapons: I don’t know about being able to fire weapons in the Warp (haven’t read any fluff that says it’s possible, b/c of Geller field maintenance which ST doesn’t have). Additionally, you can’t just ‘stick’ a warp drive onto a ST ship – you need Navigators, which within the confines of this scenario are not available to ST. If you do want to go there, then allow 40k ships to get ST cloaking devices as well.
Also, I don’t know if you’ve read Deliverance Lost by Gav Thorpe, but the Imperium DOES already have cloaking tech (we know some Raven Guard ships with it survived the HH, so it makes sense it’s still around in 40k). It relies on having a Warp shield calibrated inwards to mask everything – including light and mass readings – and basically send it into the Warp. Secondly, your comparison of Desert Storm to this scenario is in my opinion fairly absurd, seeing as though (as far as I know) ST weapons have no where near the range or output that 40k weapons have. ST blows up suns? Fine. Imperial Battlefleets just absolutely waste entire planets that are controlled by the Federation in a matter of hours per world.
About weapons range: do you have numbers on ST weapons range? In 40k it varies immensely according to what fluff you read, ranging from tens of kilometers to thousands and upwards. Additionally, you cannot say that firepower of ST ships is up to par with 40k ships – again, I reference Spacebattles.org for all the calculations – but most calculations come out past the seventeenth power of ten as a bare minimum.
Finally, I propose a different scenario: the Lion wakes up. War ends, Imperium wins.
1) Weapon and Sensor Range: On what do you base the idea that Star Trek weapon ranges and sensors are superior? Star Trek ships typically engage in the hundreds of METERS, while Imperial ships engage in the hundreds of thousands of KILOMETERS.
2) Even if Star Trek weapon ranges were superior, Star Trek weapons aren’t. They dish out damage in the megaton to gigaton range. 40k ships deal damage in the petaton to teraton range. According to the show runners of DS9, Starfleet has about 30,000 ships. Simply put, the entirety of Starfleet doesn’t have enough firepower to bring down even one of the Imperium’s most powerful ships, much less defeat them in open warfare, as the Imperium has a fleet numbering anywhere from the hundreds of thousands to the millions.
3) Star Trek ships can’t fight at warp speed as you can only move in a straight line while traveling in warp. Yes, they can fire in warp speed, but combat always takes place at impulse speed. Why? Because you can’t maneuver in warp. Weapons are typically only fired at warp when one ship is fleeing from another. But generally, Star Trek ships don’t engage in combat at warp speed. And even if we presume that they did so, for whatever reason, and thus couldn’t be attacked by Imperial ships… who cares? They can’t harm Imperial ships, anyway.
4) The Federation doesn’t have cloaking technology.
5) Your tactic is something which has never been depicted in any episode of Star Trek. Ever.
6) Whatever it was they were going to use to make the Bajoran star go nova, that was a Dominion weapon, not a Federation weapon. And even if the Federation had it, does that really strike you as plausible? That they’d suddenly decide to start annihilating star systems? Especially when it won’t even save them, anyway (See Point 8)?
6) Imperial sensors can detect cloaked ships, as they can spot the far more technologically advanced Necrons, who also use cloaking technology. So those drones which you think are so awesome? They’d get spotted and shot down by the system defenses before anyone had a reason to be concerned. Incidentally, the Imperium has cloaking technology, too. Here’re two quotes from the Last Chancers: Kill Team novel.
“With barely more than a whine, it descended, sophisticated anti-grav motors kicking in rather than loud and clumsy jets. The hull shimmered and rippled, the darkness around it distorted by an energy field which extended for several metres around it. Oriel gave a silent prayer to the Machine God, hoping that the infernal Tau surveyors had been fooled by the specially constructed stealth shield. The tech-priests had assured him this would be the case, but he was never one to rely heavily on the artifices of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
“As he stepped off the ramp, it hissed back into place and the shuttle shimmered, the cloaking field activating fully, causing the small craft to disappear from view. Within a few seconds the small transport, which was barely 3 meters high and five meters long, was invisible.”
So unlike the Federation, the Imperium actually has cloaking technology.
7) The Imperium spans millions of worlds across the entirety of the Milky Way galaxy. At maximum warp, it’d take a Federation ship over 70 years to get from one side of the galaxy to another. So the Federation war plan will take a century or so and millions of drones to accomplish?
8) The Federation can spend all the resources it likes, but there’s no possible way it can defend against the Imperium when even the weakest ship in the Imperial Navy is more powerful than a Borg cube. A fleet of 30,000 ships, equal in number to what Starfleet possesses, is only a drop in the bucket in comparison to the vast numbers of the Imperial fleets. At 150 worlds, the Imperium would be able to unleash 200 ships to every single Federation worlds at once. And because Imperial ships are so much faster, there’s absolutely nothing Starfleet would be able to do to stop the Imperium from reducing every world in the Federation to molten slag. Let me put it in perspective.
The Federation is 8,000 light years across. One of the fastest starships in service, the Intrepid Class (Voyager), which moves at Warp 9.975, would take eight years to cross from one end of the Federation. The slowest Imperial ships, however, can cross the Federation in 8-32 DAYS (according to the 2nd edition Codex: Imperial Guard). There’s simply no way the Federation, even if it did have the firepower to fend off the Imperium, which it doesn’t, could possibly mount a defense fast enough to counter any Imperial offensive.
Incidentally, this should give a hint of just how vast the scale difference between the Imperium and the Federation is. On the left you’ll see one of the largest and one of the smallest warships in the Imperial Navy. On the right you’ll see a lot of familiar Starfleet ships.
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww104/renef78/Ships.jpg
By the way, here’s a video of the Imperium destroying a planet. Note two things:
1) The destruction takes about 30 seconds.
2) A single Space Marine Battle Barge inflicts the damage (there’re other Imperial ships present, but only the Battle Barge is firing).
And here’re the effects of a single Cyclonic Warhead on a planet.
So I have two things for you to think about on the star trek side. The first is a meta-genic virus made to target… well just about anything, tyranids, orks, even space marine organs. It has come up in numerous episodes that they could make such a weapon. The imperium would have a difficult time dealing with this because their science is so backwards. Yes tyranids can adapt but so can the virus.
Now I’d like to see what one red shirt with his phaser set on wide angle disintegrate could do. Thick armor is not going to matter the. One blast and an entire space marine squad is gone.
My last point is that if the imperium could wipe them out so easily why are the Tau still around? The Imperium is not a unified government and moves very slowly. This is not so in the Federation.
That’s not much to think about. A magical virus that can miraculously kill anything and everything? On what do you base this notion that anyone could come up with a virus that could kill races as dissimilar as both Orks AND Tyranids?
And why would the Imperium have a difficult time dealing with it? You think that after ten thousand years of warfare they wouldn’t have had to deal with bioweapons? They hand out bioweapons at the squad level! The Imperium also appears to have medical technology far surpassing that of the Federation. For one, it keeps humans alive for centuries. It produces genetically engineered super-soldiers far stronger than any Augment ever seen on Star Trek. It can restore functionality to someone who’s had their spinal cord crushed (which has only been seen once in Star Trek, and that procedure only worked through pure chance).
Just because the technology in the 40k universe isn’t shiny and clean, that doesn’t mean it’s less advanced.
So if phasers set to wide were such a threat, then why didn’t one redshirt do so and kill all the attacking Jem’Hadar in The Siege of AR-558? Probably because they’re nowhere near as powerful and lethal as they are in a concentrated beam. And even then, phasers have been shown to be pretty weak, stopped even by packing crates. Moreover, the power armor which Space Marines wear is resistant to energy weapons. And unlike phasers, which have hit people square in the chest and not killed anyone (as depicted frequently in Voyager), bolters will kill you dead. Couple that with a genetically engineered Space Marine whose reflexes are far superior to any Federation soldiers, and those redshirts will be dead before they even get to lift their phasers.
Odds are, though, the average redshirt won’t be going up against a Space Marine, but the Imperial Guard. And unlike the Federation, the Imperium has real soldiers. Their lasguns can fire sustained bursts and they have squad support weapons which can hit Federation troops from long distance or roast them in cover from up close with their flamers. Honestly, if you were to place a modern military unit in the Siege of AR-558, on either side, and they’d win. That’s how inept both the Federation the Jem’Hadar were when you think about it, as a modern military unit could’ve inflicted far more damage on the enemy than either of them did.
The Tau are still around because, as weak as they are, they’re still VASTLY more powerful than the Federation. The Tau could easily crush the Federation if that was the scenario. Even the weakest 40k ships are on par or superior to Borg cubes, while the more powerful ships are completely unassailable to Star Trek weapons. That the Tau Empire is out on the Eastern Fringe, on the weakest edge of the Imperium while the Imperium is faced with numerous major threats, from Chaos to Orks to Tyranids, that’s why the Tau have survived for so long. The Imperium already had to divert one Crusade away from Tau space in order to combat a Tyranid invasion. They also had to pull troops away from the Eastern Fringe to fight the 13th Black Crusade. There’re countless threats occupying the Imperium’s attention at any one time.
This, however, is a versus scenario. It’s just the Imperium versus the Federation. Or the Imperium versus the Federation, Romulans, Klingons, Dominion, etc. And in that case, with no other major powers distracting them, the Imperium can easily curbstomp the entire Milky Way galaxy in the Star Trek universe. And even with distractions, once again, the power disparity is so great that the Imperium could send what would be for them a token force and completely exterminate the Federation.
I am going to have to agree with you on this one. The world of 40k is one of genetic diversity over the top vs. the humanoid dominated Star Trek universe. There is even an explanation of why there are so many humanoid types in the Star Trek universe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chase_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)
I am sure the 40k universe has run into all sorts of weird diseases and organisms that would make Dr. McCoy go into shock.
Don’t forget ‘diseases’ like the Plague of Unbelief, which can only (quite literally) be cured by faith alone.
A rift between the two universes opens, connecting Federation ca 2400 and Warhammer ca 40000 …
1. Probability of an attack
The federation is diplomatic in nature, but they would very likely start exploring the other side of the rift. Encountering a multitude of dangerous and hostile species i suppose they would draw back and fortify the rift on their side but not start an open attack.
The “prime directive” of the imperium is to destroy any alien encountered and to expand in every available direction. They might try to convert “pure” humans to believe in the emporer, but they will most certainly attack.
2. Type of attack
The federation will be the defenders and the war will take place in their universe.
The imperium – taking a few years to notice the rift – will finally take measures. Most comments assume an all out assault, and this has been discussed to greath length. But the imperium might take a different route, after all the encountered “aliens” are pretty much genetically pure humans, and the imperium has regularly found and subdued human colonies.
Using missionaries and converting human colonies or specialists of the officio assassinorum using shapeshifting and psionic abilities the imperium might break apart the federation without any real fight.
3. Q and the warp
In the star trek universe q might simply close the rift to “win” the war … or maybe it was q who opened it the first place for entertainment.
The warp in wh40k is closely linked to the physical world, its kind of an emotional layer. Is something similar present in st? Would the warp spill over to st?
Assuming the chaos gods aquire influence in the st universe, they would also gain quite some additional power, suddenly having a larger “food” source. Every telepath in the st universe would be a portal for demons, a single infected telepath could cause the downfall of an entire planet. The chaos gods would wreak utter havoc in the st universe and probably rip apart that unprepared universe.
The Q might be able to stop the chaos gods or they might not. The chaos gods are eternal, they exist and gain power through emotions and even the Q are susceptible to emotions and trickery. The warp might simply be apart of the universe which could not exist or bear live without it. And possibly the emotions of the nearly allpowerful Q would make the chaos gods even more powerful.
Thinking about it a bit more …
… any federation ship carrying a single telepath and entering warhammer universe would be ripped apart by demons.
… any warhammer ship entering st universe would either be stranded (if there is no warp) or bring the chaos gods with them in their wake.
Not necessarily. Telepaths in Star Trek aren’t reliant on the Warp to use their abilities. While they’re nowhere near as powerful as psykers in the 40k universe, neither would they be vulnerable to demons.
Good scenario, hey HeoClixs is making a Star Trek star ship game!
Regarding Point 2…
I always generall assumed that the Imperium would treat races like Vulcans, Romulans, Klingons, etc as abHumans, given that they all share a genetic kinship. The Imperium has accepted Ogryns, Ratlings, and even Beastmen as abHumans, so I think that the likes of Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians would get a pass so long as they accepted Imperial rule and the Imperial Creed. So basically, if a race in Star Trek can claim descent from the aliens who seeded the galaxy with life from the TNG episode “The Chase”, then the Imperium would assume that they’re related to humans, which would make them abHumans and potential citizens of the Imperium.
I completely agree with your scenario, though. Just look at how defenseless Earth was against the infiltrations of a handful of Changelings in DS9. They would’ve inflicted far more damage if the studio heads hadn’t forced them to do more with the Klingons (the plan before that was to look into the politics of the Federation, with the Changeling infiltration resulting in Vulcan seceeding from the Federation). How much more damage would Imperial Assassins inflict on the Federation? Imagine a Callidus Assassin infiltrating the cabinet of the Federation President? Perhaps even taking his place? A Vindicare Assassin taking out important Federation officials? Or an Eversor Assassin unleashed on Starfleet Headquarters in San Francisco? It’d be a horrific bloodbath.
And God help the Federation if an Imperial agent sneaks a virus bomb onto Earth. Much like the population of Istvaan III, a virus bomb attack on Earth would result in the entire planetary population dying within minutes, along with every other form of organic life, all reduced to a sticky goo. The Federation would be devastated if Starfleet Command, the Federation government, and their capitol were scoured of all life practically instantaneously.
I totally agree. The Imperium is pragmatic. The Federation can be pragmatic about allies when it needs to be as demonstrated during the war with the Dominion. The Federation was more than willing to cooperate with both Klingons and Romulans.
And another one concerning replicators in wh40k ….
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Standard_Template_Construct#.TzRBL1xhvGA
… very rare and most often for specific items (ranging from hand weapons to battleships) but semi intelligent and adaptive, even able to improbe upon the design. However a war with the federation would probably be too insignificant to risk even the most simple one of these.
Thanks for all the info!
i just have to say this. The Chaos gods can actually be defeated by sealing the massive warpstorm called The Eye of terror, But since the only man strong enuff to do that was the Emperor there is no actuall way to seal it (least from what i know)
Yeah and I don’t see the Star Trek guys figuring out how to do that. I think its going to take more than a few photon torpedoes to shut that gate down!
I don’t know about that. The Eye is just the physical reality manifestation of the Warp. The Warp will always exist alongside realspace.
Although it is the reason a lot of the phyckers a born with their powers and Not even the emperor actually had the juice to seal the eye mostly becuse it is basically as old he is. On top of the fact it was created essentially by the combined emotions of the Eldar before their fall. the only ones that I can think of that could close it would be the Necrons as they really hate phyckers and they have the tech to get it done.
I one of the Star Trek books not the TV shows or movies, the Vulcans are described as having created artifacts that can boost their telepathic potential to the level of nuclear weapons. However, I would say psychic powers as weapons are not as big in Star Trek as in the 40K universe:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Telepathy
@40k Lore Master
The Eye isn’t as old as the Emperor, the Eye is only 10k years old. It was formed as a byproduct of the Fall of the Eldar – it’ s just where the Warp bleeds into reality. Psykers before the existence of the Warp had still been able to utilize their powers.
@foxhugh
Nuclear weapons are great, but Alpha-level and Alpha-plus level psykers can destroy entire worlds (the description is vague, but intentionally so – at that point, they can either blow worlds up, or turn trillions of humans on each other in a frenzy unintentionally)
Not to meantion the Imperium’s land vehicles. Titens, dreadnoughts, landspeeders, and the plethora amount of tanks.
*Titans
Some things have been forgotten, first off, the imperium is quite large, actually, it encompasses over 80% of the Galaxy. In that galaxy, it controls OVER a million worlds. Some of them sparsly populated and a crap ton of them with populations of over 500,000,000,0000. To protect that against the Quadrillions of Tyranids, Orks, Necrons, dark Eldar and traitors/heretics (also billions of Tau, Eldar and other minor races…and literally an infinite amount of Daemons) the Imperium needs a LARGE fleet, actually, several thousand fleets, some as small as a few ships and a crap ton numbering in the thousands. And I’m talking BIG ships. The Q, well, I’m pretty sure that the C’tan cound take them on in the material universe, afterall, they cause stars to go supernova at will, no need for a mechanical device. In the Warp, the Chaos Gods would take care of the Q. Let me put it bluntly, the imperium would steamroll over the Federation, it’s allies and all others Trek universe opponents within weeks and bring their worlds to compliance with the help of tens of Billions of Imperial Guardsmen….and a few thousand Space Marines. The only reason that it would take so long is that Warp travel is relativly slow 🙂
I agree with all your comments except what you have to say about Q. If you read the comments there is general agreement even by the most die hard Warhammer 40K proponents that Q with his time traveling abilities is problematic. Q could go back into time, as he has done in Star Trek episodes, and just stop humans from showing at all by destroying life on Earth when it first shows up. Time travel is not to be underestimated. Its kind of like billion zillion tribes people going up against a guy with one nuclear bomb. Its one guy and one bomb but the billion zillion advantage doesn’t help much. Q has a knock out punch that is not dependent on the impressive numbers of the Imperium. But absolutely, Star Fleet vs the Imperium! Dont make me laugh! Check the graphic at the end of my post, the Imperium ships make the Star Fleet ships look like mosquitoes and they outnumber them at least 10,000 to one!
Yeah…the only weakness Q have is being emotionally childish. Cough.
The whole omnipotent being as teenager was vaguely amusing but got really old really fast. Still, how an omnipotent being would behave is problematic. My favorite speech by a being that is not necessarily omnipotent but pretty above humans is the the following one by the architext in The Matrix Reloaded:
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K-g7ipAqYY&w=420&h=315%5D
I agree. Omnipotent beings should be required to say ‘ergo’ every three seconds :D.
Unless I’m mistaken, the chaos gods were able to scatter the fallen Dark Angels through space and time during the horus heresy, which shows some time travel ability, maybe not on par with Q or maybe so, and if so surely that would put both in a sort of time/genocide stalemate?
Just a thought, i’m not confident with time travel, or star trek. Massive 40k fan though! 😛
Its Not that the Chaos gods have the ability to time travel, its the whole nature of the warp. In the warp all sense of space and time breaks down so for the Chaos Gods (which are powerful enough to pull entire planets into the warp, not every day mind you but still) a bit of time travel wouldn’t be a big deal as they are creatures of that medium. just as a note though I do believe that everyone is forgetting that there is five Chaos Gods not four with the fifth being the Outcast God Malal who is parasitic in nature and is only strong when one or more of the other four are strong. if you dount believe me here: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Malal
oh and just food for thought if the Q are sometimes childish as you say then what is stopping their emotions from feeding the Chaos Gods, the very things they may seek to destroy?
I did some poking around the web and the general consensus is that time travel does happen in the Warhammer 40K universe but its not controllable. Keep in mind 40k is a dysutopian universe vs. the utopian universe of Star Trek. 40k is governed by Murphys law that everything that can go wrong does go wrong and I think this includes time travel.
Overall, there is always a problem when trying to figure out when beings of omnipotent or near omnipotent beings clash. Its hard to conceptualize a Q. Its hard to conceptualize chaos gods. Its even harder to conceptualize what happens when they meet. I just got done reading Fantastic Four 603 that includes the much heralded battle between Galactus and three Celestials ( mad celestials from an alternate universe not the “real” ones) and like so many such conflicts, it just doesn’t really work. Thanos vs. Odin way back when was good and some of the Beyonder conflicts in Secret Wars but crafting battles between omnipotent beings is just really difficult conceptually.
Can we all agree on one thing? The chaos gods are sooooooo much cooler than the Q, Visually, plot wise, and character wise. The names alone!
From Wikipedia:
Khorne: bloodlust, war, death, blood, and skulls, he is the most powerful of the four main gods. Khorne favors close combat, abhorring the use of psychic powers, seeing psyckers as weak and cowardly. In addition to blood and war, Khorne is also the god of courage and honor. While he blesses and favors his followers, Khorne does not truly care who spills blood, so long as the blood continues to be spilled. Khorne often blesses his followers with greater strength to slaughter their enemies.
Tzeentch: change, fate, mutation, knowledge. Tzeentch’s followers are powerful sorcerers who prefer to channel the energies of the warp at a distance rather then get close to enemies. Tzeentch is always scheming, his every action feeding into a greater plot which only he can understand, and uses his every follower as a pawn to be thrown way once their usefulness has come to an end. Tzeentch blesses his followers with greater knowledge and power.
Nurgle: plague, despair, disease, life, Nurgle is the oldest of the four gods, disease and decay having existed since the beginning of life. Nurgle reviles in death and decay, his servants exist only to spread disease across the galaxy. He blesses his followers by corrupting and bloating their bodies with disease making them immune to pain.
Slaanesh: lust, pleasure, excess. Created by the Eldar race’s collective hedonistic thoughts and feelings, Slaanesh destroyed the Eldar Empire and slaughtered their pantheon(save for their war god Khaine who could not be beaten in battle whom he shattered into thousands of pieces), whenever an Eldar dies their soul is taken by Slannesh to be tormented for all eternity. While extremely powerful at its birth Slaanesh is the weakest of the four chaos gods. Slaanesh often blesses his followers with heightened senses and reflexes, allowing them to react and perform actions at inhuman speeds.
In addition to the main four there has been small mention of another god called Malal(called Malice in Warhammer 40k), an outcast who represents Chaos’ indiscriminate and anarchistic destruction.
Malal: anarchy, destruction. Malal(called Malice in Warhammer 40k) represents the indiscriminate destruction caused by the other god’s and their followers. His power is parasitic, feeding off of the destruction caused by his fellow gods and their followers. Malal and his followers destroy indiscriminately, just as likely to attack a chaos warband as they are the Imperium, due to this he has become an outcast, feared and hated by the other gods, and is rarely spoken of. Malal has the smallest amount of followers among the chaos gods.
Q! What kind of name is Q! The whole adolescent pose of the Q is so boring so fast. Motivation? What motivation. Eternal beings should have giant heaping spoon fuls of desire to fight the enui of eternity. Marvel has the elders of the universe with their hobbies but I think just the flat out embrace of evil and decay is what gets you through the aeons! The only omnipotent beings in the multiverse that come even close to just dripping with evil that you can almost feel it would be the Lovecraft mythos which I do think is a direct descendant to the 40k chaos gods ie whoever conceptualized the 40k chaos gods was a big Lovecraft fan!
How many Qs are there on ST universe???? 1000? lol
Well there was a war between Q’s so that suggest more than two or three. You can count different Q seen in the various episodes on one hand.
Offtopic question: since time element on WH40k is very limited, is it possible for the Feds to help the Imperium by creating an “anti-time” anomally near the golden throne of terra then closing it after the Emperor revives????
btw i think the “anti time” can eat the eye of terror since it reverses everything till non-existence,
btw since “anti time” ate the whole alpha quadrant, can it also eat the eye of terror????
Doubt it. While the Warp influences time, it is run by emotions, not time itself. It could break down one of the existing dimensions of the Warp, but there’s no way an ‘anti-time’ device would break it.
Indirectly the warp might not be affected but hey if all other beings get eaten by the anti time then there will be no more emotions to power up those chaos gods they will weaken and die as well ( gods without worshipers die right? )
I looked up anti-time. Anti-time is used in pretty much the same manner conceptually in not only the Star Trek universe but Dr. Who universe. Ironically, anti-time was deleted from Wikipedia but the old page still exists at:
http://deletionpedia.dbatley.com/w/index.php?title=Anti-time_(deleted_18_Aug_2008_at_23:35)
I suppose anti-time would go ahead and destroy its own entry :)! By accident I ran into a survey of Time Wars in sci-fi!
http://io9.com/5858758/when-time-is-a-battlefield-the-most-bewildering-time-wars
Basically can the Star Trek wage a Time War against the Warhammer 40K universe and use anti-time kind of as an ultimate weapon? I think the answer is yes! Since Q was able to stop an anti-time eruption (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Anti-time_eruption ), think its fair to say a Q could probably create one. All in all an anti-time eruption would probably be the ultimate weapon the Star Trek universe could use against the Warhammer 40K universe and if that failed then they are toast!
Picard made that one, not Q, he fed Tachyon on all 3 occurences and made it sooo big it ate the alpha quadrant. Btw since the borg collective can communicate thru time(voyager series with 7 fo 9) with their corticle nodes and can make any singularities, can they create anti-time anomallies as well?
Star Trek is utopian. Warhammer 40K is dysutopian. People figure stuff out in the Star Trek universe, especially Federation engineers. The Space Marines are much better warriors but who would you rather have figure out some incredibly complex temporal mechanic problem, Scotty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Scott ) or some ham handed Space Marine!Heck the Imperium literally loses technology over time and science and supersticion are all muddled together. The Imperium has a Middle Ages mindset and solves Gordian knots with a sword or a chain sword in the case of the Space Marines. The Federation is filled with techies with an Enlightment mindset. The Federation could figure out an anti-time weapon and come on any technological feat the Federation can do, the Borg can do better and on a much bigger scale! Even the Borg do not operate on an Imperium scale but I think they would have a real shot with anti-time weapons but maybe thats the only shot the Star Trek universe would have period. And on top of it all the Chaos gods don’t fight fair at all. Could they corrupt key personnel in the Federation and even cause the corrupted Federation personnel to betray the Federation and use any anti-time weapon against the Federation. I think the Space Marines have a lot more inate ability to resist the corruption of the Chaos gods than Federation types and they have been corrupted in huge numbers during the Horus Heresy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus_Heresy ). All in all, I would warn all space farers from adjoining realities to stay far away from the Warhammer 40k universe. Is it even a fun universe? Its fun if you want a good brawl but heck no replicators, no holodecks, and a short brutish life for most!
i read the warp is made up of psychic energy borne from psykers, so can shields be attuned to the frequency to render it useless. i think there are prisons for psionics/telepaths on STU too.
you have it reverse psykers are ‘connected’ to the warp and gain their powers from it. shields may lessen a psyker’s attack if it were a physical one but not if they attacked mentally, simply because they would attacking your very soul through the warp. The reason you would also be connected is because every human soul is connected to the warp and ‘goes there’ when the human dies.
The Immaterium (also referred to as the Empyrean, Aether or Warp) is an alternate dimension of purely psychic energy that echoes and underlies the familiar four dimensions of the material universe. It is the source of all psychic powers and known instances of so-called “sorcery” and the home dimension of the Chaos Gods and their myriad daemonic servants. Superficially, it is the Warhammer 40,000 solution to the problem of faster than light travel, an equivalent to the Star Wars universe’s dimension of hyperspace. This function as a faster than light medium for travel is achieved by the Immaterium being a domain of pure psychic energy, with spacecraft navigating between currents, as in an ocean. The psychic energy that makes up the Immaterium is believed to be the direct result of the existence of sentience in the universe, in particular the Milky Way Galaxy. Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaos, raw emotion given energetic form. Stirred by emotion and action, the Immaterium is the true realm of Chaos, home to the dark gods who comprise the Ruinous Powers and their daemonic followers. It also is rumoured to house the spirits of the dead, and therefore can be considered the “Underworld” of the Warhammer 40,000 universe.
*In STU i think there are psionic prisons capable of nullifying a psychic enabled race, i think a similar device is mounted on some psyker titans protecting it from psyker attacks. If the same technology were used on ship shielding then it can protect the entire crew from warp based corruption.
*there are no psykers on STU so i think a direct warp-based attack would be ineffective
Some things that play a fairly prominent role in Trek lore that would probably make a difference here:
the Mirror Universe and its Terran Empire, as well as Tiberius’ Tantalus Field:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mirror_universe
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Terran_Empire
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tantalus_field
the First Federation and its Fesarius-class warships:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/First_Federation
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Fesarius
Starfleet’s Prometheus-class starship:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prometheus_class
the Guardian:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Guardian_of_Forever
the Xindi and their superweapon:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Xindi_superweapon
the Sphere builders:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sphere_Builder
And let’s not forget that Q is a single Q of a race of Q, capable of creating more Q. Not only was he capable of stopping an anti-time leak, he did so instantaneously, even though it propogated backward through time from its (chronological) point of origin and thus technically should have ended Q and everything else before anything or anywhen even existed. The Q have also been known to transfer and/or remove their powers, both to and from themselves as well as ‘lesser’ races, as well as literally bring the dead back to life.
As an added bonus, most races/beings in the primary Trek universe have doubles in the Mirror universe, many of which are violent, warlike and militaristic.
… and this still doesn’t even begin to cover all of the potential wartime assets the Trek universe has at its disposal. I’m not saying the 40k universe would be a pushover, not by a long shot, but they certainly wouldn’t be ‘steamrolling’ the Trek universe.
If we start bringing in multiple universes, you should note that in 40k, that area has yet to be explored, but is probably possible. The problem with 40k is that it is so unexplored in terms of fluff, that I have no doubt that in some potential universe, the IoM has millions of death-star like ships, or maybe in another one the Emperor succeeded in evolving Humanity to the degree where everyone is a powerful, potent psyker. Most fleets can already destroy planets within a day, anyways, though. And while the Q have had their powers documented extensively, the Chaos Gods and the Emperor have not. Any real attempt to put those factions at war with one another just doesn’t work very well, because of the unknown limits on the latter two.
If we’re talking about mirror-universe super races, then we have to really take a look at the Necrons, Old Ones, and Eldar at the height of their empires. Eldar less so – mainly the metal men and their nemesis(es?). The tech level for the Necrons is so far beyond anything in current 40k, it makes most of the IoM weaponry on the most heavily defended planets look like a joke (one small Necron Cruiser was able to get through Mars’ entire defense grid, and was only destroyed after it reached the surface). Considering how ridiculously overpowered everything is in 40k, that’s quite a feat. Planetary guns and an entire defense fleet of the most advanced ships in 40k couldn’t bring down a single cruiser! Now that’s crazy stuff.
So would a mirror universe of 40K be this really nice, clean antiseptic place were the Space Marines wear lots of pink and the Necrons and humans are the best of friends? And of course goatees all around!
See, I just can’t see the goatees. Necrons and Humans are already best of buddies, thanks to Matt Ward, haha
Yeah!
If you go deep into 40k lore there are mentions of things like the cacodominus, the omega vault, the dark cells, halo devices, labyrinth of thanotep, specimen 696, the pale wasting. The echoing vault. Those would cause some issues. And the fact the chaos god in 40k are the same I AOS meaning they may be on a higher than universal level.
TheSGC, I only listed the Mirror universe because it isn’t actually fluff. It’s been visited and documented multiple times. It’s a core part of the Trek verse. Hell, the focal branching point (where the two universes split) is the most important moment in Trek history – First Contact. If you want to get into multiple universes, there are literally – literally! – an infinite amount in the Trek verse, and what’s more, they could technically be accessed with a little 29th century tech, the crew of the Voyager (and their experiences), and some time to perfect the technology (and time isn’t much of an issue, given Trek tech and the Q). Transferring people from one alternate reality to another, both intentionally and unintentionally, has been done on at least three occasions. There is absolutely no reason to believe it could not be done again. And while one cruiser penetrating an entire fleet and planetary defense grid certainly is no mean feat, could you say with certainty that the same ship could defeat an entire verse’s combined forces? Because it could very well come down to that – Starfleet proper could theoretically recruit a literally unlimited amount of ships, crewmembers and resources.
I also forgot to mention the Silver Blood. Even on its own, it would be a formidable force to reckon with:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Silver_Blood
Starfleet would have 40k tech and races as well! 😀 I’d say that evens things up to a degree.
foxhugh, I don’t think an alt 40k verse would necessarily be nice, clean antiseptic or pink… but that is certainly an interesting scenario you’ve painted there. 😛
I love the Mirror universe episodes. Star Wars did something similar with Infinities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Infinities
Probably just a matter of time before the same thing is done over at 40K. A 40k divergence could be much darker what if Horus had won in the Horus Heresy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus_Heresy
On the other hand what would have happened if Horus had rejected chaos early on an aided the Emperor instead of hurting the enemy. It could be a two part graphic novel with two covers. If you turn it right side up then you get one story and if you turn it upside and open it from the other side you get the other story. A similar graphic of a space marine is used for both covers but in the universe were Horus won a chaos space marine sits. In the other a similar space marine sits but the cover is made of gold chrome cover paper.
I could say without a doubt that ship to ship, fleet to fleet, the Necrons wipe the floor against anything Star Trek can throw at them. Hell, they could wipe the floor with the entire Imperium, Eldar, Tau, and Orks combined. If a small cruiser could do what it did, imagine what a fleet of cruisers, fighters, battleships, carriers, and cruisers could do.
“Transferring people from one alternate reality to another, both intentionally and unintentionally, has been done on at least three occasions”
If so, then the Borg could have easily been dealt with. Instead, one cube decimated an entire fleet and nearly took out Earth as well.
“Starfleet proper could theoretically recruit a literally unlimited amount of ships, crewmembers and resources”
Same for the Warp. It is limitless. Hypothetically, it stretches (in terms of realities) as wide as the entire known universe does. Any of the Chaos Gods, and particularly Tzeentch, could easily see the past and the future, and obtain whatever tech Star Trek had dealing with time travel/interdimensional incursions. Additionally (and hypothetically), if the Chaos Gods willed it so, they could flood the entire material realm with an infinite number lesser and greater daemons. Also, I should point out that there is at least one documented case of instant transportation to an alternate timeline – a short story in one of the omnibuses perhaps 2 yrs ago dealt with a renegade SM captain who gets transported to an entirely new reality by Tzeentch where he is some scrawny caveman about to be executed for a minor transgression.
Regarding the silver blood: from the wiki,
“new warp core had no harmful side-effects on cellular life, it did however cause all people and objects made of the Silver Blood to eventually break down and die, striking first the engineering staff and subsequently spreading”
Not sure how it would be able to ‘mimick’ a Gauss Flayer weapon if it’s getting shot at – Necron sensors are fairly advanced by any science fiction standards, so it’d be hard to believe that this biomimetic lifeform is just going to rampage around and copy everything in 40k without any form of retaliation that would blow it up. I haven’t seen that episode though (more of a TNG and TOS guy, actually; got into ST Enterprise while I had SyFy, but that was before I reverted to basic cable) – the replication time would also factor into how well it would fare and how far it would get against 40k.
But realistically, I doubt any of that happens. It’s a possibility, sure, but one that even as a 40k fan I just don’t see Chaos Gods making time break or something like that happening. It’s not realistic within the bounds set the current fluff in the universe, and neither is the recruitment from the multiverses for ST. It’s been done, it can be done, but we can’t base an argument off it. Since multiple universes is barely touched on in 40k, I can’t really say anything definitive on that, either, so I will concede that ST has more documented evidence and so it *may* have an advantage in that department. However, I doubt that it’s enough to face down 40k tech, weaponry, fleet sizes, and firepower.
I agree with most of your points and yeah the whole multiverse angle can be confusing!
There is one thing to most definitely remember. The skills of the Adeptus Mechanicus. The Magos of that organization can always communicate with the Machine Spirits of the Star Trek ships and weaponry and get them to stop working. Plus, the Q have the power to bend space and time pretty much however they want. Fairly similar to what the Immaterium does. So just by using their powers, they could be opening themselves up to be a snack for the beings of the Warp. They haven’t had to learn how to shield themselves from it, as their universe doesn’t have the possibility of their souls being devoured.
Yike machine souls! Really in Warhammer 40K machines have souls? Do all inanimate objects have some sort of animus as in animism or just machines? I think computers like me and I like computers. Cell phones don’t like me! I am not kidding!
Not exactly. The machine cult thinks that all machines are alive, and that they are governed by machine spirits. Some machines like land raiders and Titans do have sophisticated AI which is venerated highly by the machanicus. By ‘communicate with the machine spirits’ a tech priest means “tap into the controls” or ‘fix it’ even if he doesn’t realise that is what is going on. The imperium views all technology through a shroud of superstition.
The power of the imperium has been well documented in the comments. What hasn’t been covered as much is the power of its various enemies.
The Tau
Not that impressive on paper in the 40k universe they nevertheless have a useful trait in a war with the start trek universe. Innovation. Alone of the documented races of 40k the Tau are actively improving their technology. In the space of 2000 years they have gone from nomadic primitives to a spacefaring society. In the space of a couple of hundred years they have exceeded the imperiums current level of technology in several key areas. Ally this creative thinking to the massive production capacity of the imperiums thousands of forge worlds and hive worlds and the 40k universe will be able to match whatever the federation think tanks come up with and overwhelm it.
The Eldar
As well as their formidable forces in space and on land the Eldar have the capacity to see the future. They can trace out all of its possible paths and take action to make the most favourable come to pass. Some of their most powerful seers have manipulated the other races of 40k to their own ends using this ability. Put all of the eldar together and they will know exactly where and when to strike against the super races of the ST universe. Not to mention that their psychic abilities are the most powerful and sophisticated of the 40k races.
The Tyranids
As someone else said these aren’t just bugs. They were also correct in saying that the imperium would need to increase conscription by 500% to have a hope of fighting them. That isn’t the worst bit. If there was just lots of them it might be doable. The Tyranids use strategy. They are directed by a vast alien intelligence called the ‘hive mind’ or ‘shadow in the warp’ It learns from the enemies it fights and develops tactics to counter them, sometimes within minutes. It also controls their genetic code and evolves new organisms to suit strategies. Including bio energy weapons, psychic powers and chemical explosives. You don’t get to use the same trick twice against the ‘nids. They learn that quick. If all the swarm were gathered together to fight then no-one in both universes combined could beat them short of the various God-like beings.
The Orks
Brutish and savage, the orks are built only for war and rival the tyranids for numbers. They can turn any scrap metal they find into serviceable weapons, vehicles, and space ships. Mechanically speaking, their technology shouldn’t work. But it does because of the innate psychic nature of the orks. Somehow, if they think something should work a certain way, it does. Because it doesn’t occur to them to reload, their guns never run out of ammo. Orks stapled back together by an ork medic live again because he thinks they should. The power of this belief is proportional to the number of orks in the proximity. Ork invasions have a tendancy to be ‘luckier’ than small warbands. Corkscrewing rockets hit fuel tanks, joyriding buggies stumble on an imperial supply line. If all the orks were gathered together who knows what kind of forces they could ignore. If a Billion orks see a Q and think ‘he’s just a humie’ he might just lose his power. It’s an unknown quantity.
The Necrons
The C’tan and their servants the necrons are what’s left of the winning side in a war for the galaxy millions of years ago. In the terms of this discussion they are easily a super race as the depth of their scientific understanding is unrivalled in 40k by any other power in any other time period of that setting. In the current time period they have been sleeping for millions of years and their technology is still far in advance of any other race in the physical realm. Their basic guns strip a target down to the atomic level to be fed to their gods. Their starships can traverse the galaxy at speeds that make imperial ships look sluggish by comparison. Every necron warrior, device, and vehicle is infused with nano technology that self repairs fast enough to be obvious to the naked eye. Slain warriors rise again within moments of being struck down. If too much damage is inflicted at once then they are teleported away to a ship or world where more extensive repairs can be made. And that’s the servants.
The C’tan themselves are far more dangerous. They bend the physical realm to their every whim, and their essence is as indestructible as the stars themselves. You may think that doesn’t sound that bad compared to the power of the Q. However the big problem is confronting a C’tan on your own terms. Like the Q they appear to be able to travel anywhere in the galaxy almost instantaneously. Their location limited more by desire rather than travel time. Ally that with the predictive powers of the Eldar (above) and they become truly terrifying. Especially the one known as the Deciever, which I’ll cover in a bit.
Others
In addition to the major powers there are literally billions of minor alien races in 40k. The imperium holds a paltry million worlds of the trillions of habitable(and uninhabitable) planets of the milky way. It is surrounded by vast gulfs of wilderness space where alien empires and horrors lurk in the void. Most of them are implied in the background material and authors can (and do) make up aliens as they see fit to flesh out a campaign book or novel. See this page for most of the documented ones:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Category:Minor_Alien_Species_and_Factions#.T3QzDdVvEcc
Of particular note are the Hrud which are found all over the galaxy and cause any nearby matter to rot and decay.
Deception
From what I recall of star trek the Q have nigh limitless power, but use it in petty and spiteful ways. They come across as a race that has got everything they ever wanted and then squander it on selfish pleasures. Also, despite their power they don’t come across as particularly clever. Mostly I think because most problems they come across can be solved with a quick application of raw power. They haven’t needed to be smart for aeons. And I think this is their weakness.
There are malevolent powers in the 41st millennium which have plotted and schemed for thousands of years. The most notable of which are the C’tan known as the Deciever and the Chaos Gods Tzeentch and Slaanesh. The Deceiver is credited with starting the gothic war in order to deprive the elder of their ancient superweapons against the C’tan. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/12th_Black_Crusade#.T3Q3xNVvEcc
He is a master of disguise and manipulation and could quite easily pass himself off as a Q. It would not be hard for him start strife amongst them and get them to destroy each other as his C’tan brethren did.
Tzeentch and Slaanesh are the greatest foes the 40k universe has for the Q to face. Tzeentch has manipulated and tricked the creatures of real space and the warp for as long as both have existed. Including his fellow chaos gods. His plots are labyrinthine, with contingencies for everything. He can out plot all the Q at once and trick them into thinking it was all their own idea at the same time. Because victory would mean an end to schemes he is far more likely to manipulate them indefinitely, using their infinite power as a way to bury them in layer upon layer of deception. They can manipulate time, but he is eternal. He is always laying in wait, laughing.
Slaanesh is desire personified. The Q are certainly not above using their power for self gratification. And with that Slaanesh will corrupt them. He is the master tempter. He will make them want to use their power for greater and greater thrills. Blow up a star? Boring! Blow up a constellation! He is the ultimate distraction. Where Tzeentch will bury them in lies, Slaanesh will send them after the next big thing. Forever.
Before these powers the Q are but little children in a vast and hungry sea…
Obviously the influence of Tzeentch and Slaanesh is contingent on the Warp being present in the ST universe. But it isn’t needed for the deceiver.
Wow thats a lot of information to digest, thanks!
the eldar beat the necrons one time by just eliminating the main powersource and sent all those necrons to sleep and be burried on that planet tomb <— an easy feat that can also be done by the BORG + all those dead husks can be assimilated instantly gaining all knowledge and technology held by the necrons and the ctan
Imperium ships rely on the warp for ftl travel, if a rift opened between 2 worlds it would be centuries before those ships reach the nearest system.( the warp would likely be nullified from spreading due to the logic and other forces present on star trek universe — they would need the chaos marines to make an altar on the nearest system to summon a warp storm if they can reach it, maybe in a few hundred years with thrusters only lolz ) Tricobalt Torpedoes can be modified with warpcoils to enable very very long range bombardment, and long range scans can easily find weakness on shield frequencies and alloy components, very easy to replicate counter measures.( btw they might get stranded on the way without ample fuel LOLZ )
Chaos gods while very powerfull dont have power over life and death, if the most powerfull chaos god(slanesh) was borne from the death of billions of eldars then it would surely die instantly if the Q raises those from the dead. Khorne would weaken if all his bloodthirsty followers beacme pacifists all of a sudden. Better yet Q could easily restore The EMPEROR of mankind and that would be a big headache for those chaos gods lolz.
I’d be very interested to see what story you’re talking about there. It sounds more like they stopped a tomb world from awakening rather than shutting down active necrons. The former is entirely possible if you deactivate the central intelligence running the world(nevermind the nano-scarab swarms and canoptek spiders defending them). The latter is only possible through brute force.
I think it is entirely possible for the warp to exist in the ST universe. In the 40k background the various psychic races (humans, elder, orks etc) were created by the Old Ones to combat the C’tan and the Necrons. It was their untrained minds stirred up by violent emotions during the war which made the Warp into the horrifying nightmare realm it is in the current story. Before that it was just a relatively tranquil sub dimension.
Both universes are set in the Milky way, and both acknowledge that there are multiple other dimensions which overlap with real space. It’s not a stretch to imagine that the warp is sitting relatively quietly in the background of ST unexplored because of the invention of the warp drive.
Slaanesh is actually the least powerful of the chaos gods. Because of the timeless nature of the warp his birth into existence is only peripherally important. In a way Slaanesh has always been, and he has never been. He isn’t so easy to wipe out. Raising the elder would probably just give him more energy to snack on. Also if you are going to start attacking chaos gods directly you will have to cross into the 40k universe where their mental influence on the Q will start to take its toll immediately.
Raising the emperor would help the 40k side as the premise of this discussion is that each universe puts aside its internal quarrels to fight against the other.
Additionally, we have to take into account the more recent quotes in the Chaos Codex regarding Tzeentch: “…I have watch since the beginning of time…” (possible paraphrase there). Implication: he knows all, he sees all.
[QUOTE]1.0) SUPER RACES
Super races are races that are far, far more powerful than humans. Super races are races that are so powerful that their participation in a conflict between the Federation and the Imperium could decisively affect the outcome of the war.
1.1) Star Trek Super Races
Angosians – [TNG ‘The Hunted’]. The Angosians are genetically enhanced supersoldiers.
They have interdimensional transporter technology. [TNG ‘The High Ground’][/QUOTE]
The Angosians are not a super race. Aside from their ability to disrupt a transporter, they’re not really anymore sophisticated than the Earth Human Augments made in the 1990s on Trek Earth. Hell, the UFP sanctioned genetic engineering that we saw in TNG were powerful telepaths and had an immune system that made itself lethal to other life forms.
The Angosians to my knowledge, have never been suggested to be a powerful race in and of themselves. In fact, I do believe Picard and his crew were somewhat condescending towards them.
[QUOTE]1.2) Warhammer 40K Super Races
Chaos Gods – There are many chaos gods but there are four major chaos gods:
Khorne – God of Blood, rage, war and unrelenting fury
Tzeench – God of Change, magic, schemes and plots
Nurgle – God of Decay, disease and physical corruption
Slaanesh – God of Hedonism, excess and pleasure
These four gods are the most powerful beings in the Warhammer 40K universe. They exist in a parallel universe called the warp that exists in the Warhammer 40K universe but not the Star Trek Universe. The power of the chaos god in the warp is immense but the extent of their power outside of the warp is much more limited. Inside the warp the chaos gods can probably hold their own against any of the super races in the Star Trek universe except the Q. Outside the warp, the chaos gods may not be as powerful as many of the super races in the Star Trek universe.
Greater Daemons – The Greater Daemons are much less powerful than the Chaos Gods but still much more powerful than humans. Their main manifestation outside of the warp is via possession of mortals and there are limits to their ability to leave the warp.
Daemon Princess – Mortals that receive “gifts” from the Chaos Gods can grow to become Daemon Princess and are extremely powerful.
Elder Gods – Powerful gods that are good as opposed to the Chaos Gods but not as powerful as the Chaos Gods.
1.3) Super Race Conclusion
The super races of Star Trek are generally one-shots. The super races of Warhammer 40K are part of the foundation of this universe and interference, one way or another, would be more likely from the Warhammer 40Ksuper races than the Federation super races. The main limitation of the super races of the Warhammer 40K universe is their limited ability to manifest outside of the warp. Their ability to even operate in the Star Trek universe at all has to be questioned. The Star Trek super races in turn do not have the same warp type limitations. There is no super race in Warhammer 40K universe that is anywhere near the power level of the Q.[/QUOTE]
Okay, there’s a difference between gods and superhuman. You need to learn that difference. There is a great difference between the T’Kon, the Iconians, the Borg and species like the Q or the Organians. Or the Chaos Gods.
[QUOTE]2.0) NEAR HUMAN RACES
Near human races are defined here as not being a super race and having power and ability more or less in the same range as the human race. Special attention will be given to races that do not belong to the Imperium or Federation but have special powers or abilities of significance in combat.
2.1) Near Human Races – Star Trek
There are literally over a hundred near human races in the Star Trek universe. Most of them have some interesting cultural quirk developed for plot purposes but totally irrelevant in a combat situation. There are also so many one shot races that even a dedicated Trekkie has a hard time keeping them straight. The focus will be on near human races that could have a significant impact on the outcome of war if they joined forces with the Federation.
The two best known warrior races in the Star Trek universe include the Klingons and the Jem’Hadar. Both of these warrior races are much stronger than humans and are far better trained in combat that most members of the Federation. The Jem’Hadar also have a natural cloaking ability. The Changelings, the creators of the Jem’Hadar, and are shape shifters that used this ability and strategic cunning to conquer one quadrant of the Star Trek Universe. The Changelings could infiltrate the Imperium and acts as perfect spies. Other enemies of the Federation that have large empires and large star ship fleets include the Romulans and the Cardassians but they are not warrior races and would bring numbers but not necessarily any special warrior skills to the table.[/QUOTE]
Try thousands and go up from there.
[QUOTE]2.2) Near Human Races – Warhammer 40k
The near human races of Warhammer 40K include the Dark Eldars, Demiurg ,
Eldar, Genestealer , Gretchin,
Necrons, Old Ones, Orks, Ripper Swarms, Snotling, Squat, Tyranid, Vespid, Warrior Genus and the Zoat. Some of the races on this list are very powerful and would give the Imperium a significant edge in any war if they joined the Imperium.[/QUOTE]
No. See, this is the problem you have. You make categories for both, but then apply entirely different standards to each one of them. The tyranids are not near-human as a species. They are anything but. I’d complain about the Necrons too…but 5th edition took care of that.
[QUOTE]The Eldar are a race much older than humanity and can see in the future and have technology superior to that of Imperium. Eldars that have followed the path of the warrior are incredible warriors that have close combat capabilities that have been developed over millennia and that far surpass the combat skills of the Klingons and Jem’Hadar.[/QUOTE]
Um, the Jem’Hadar have been serving as the shock troops for the Dominion since the 4th century. That’s not exactly something to sneeze at. And the age of a society really has nothing to do with how skilled they are. Different races seem to advance at different speeds, given how varied sci-fi is.
[QUOTE]The Necrons are even older than the Eldars and also have combat capabilities that surpass the warrior races of the Star Trek universe. The Necrons resemble skeletons and many are thousands of years old and they are just plain creepy much creepier than any race in the Star Trek universe.[/QUOTE]
Again, see 5th. It removed all creepy they once had.
[QUOTE]The Tyranids are an insect like race that exist in various genetic permutations. Tyranid psychology is very alien and an alliance between them and the Imperium is unlikely but they would give the Imperium a huge advantage if they joined the cause of the Imperium.[/QUOTE]
…What?
No really. What?
The Tyranids do not give two shits about the difference between the UFP and the Imperium. They really don’t. That’s…that’s part of what they are. Nor are the Orks going to help the Imperium. Nor are the eldar, who’ll sit it out on the sidelines. Neither will the Tau. Or the Necrons.
[QUOTE]2.3) Near Human Races Conclusion
There are many more near human races in the Star Trek universe than the Warhammer 40K universe. The near human races of the Warhammer 40K universe are far more powerful than the near human races of the Star Trek universe. If you judge someone by their enemies then the Imperium is indeed a fearsome force. Fighting humanoids like the Klingons and Jem’Hadar is one thing, fighting giants insects and practically indestructible skeletons is another. The participation of near human races in a war between the Federation and the Imperium would help the Imperium much more than the Federation.[/QUOTE]
Physically, 40k warriors and soldiers are a great deal more imposing. But then again, a phaser set to level 16 is more than enough to burn away a full plated Space Marine and much lower settings are capable of instantly killing orks and necrons.
3.0) WEAPONS
Below are two sets of lists for the purposes of comparing Star Trek weaponry and Warhammer 40K weaponry. The weapons of both universes have been broken into three categories: energy weapons, melee weapons and ranged weapons. These are all the weapons available in a particular universe not just those used by the Federation or Imperium. If the weapons are not generally used and/or available to the Federation or Imperium, then the alien race that uses this weapon has been identified.
Why would you include all these weapons and talk about absolutely nothing about how they use them or what they’re capable of? Also, while I don’t doubt that the Borg have gravimetric torpedoes, that was used by Voyager at the command of Captain Janeway as a means of disposing of the Omega Particles a race had discovered.
[QUOTE]A numerical comparison of the two lists shows that the Warhammer 40K universe has a much wider range of weapons. The Star Trek universe has 19 types of energy weapons compared to 34 types of energy weapons in the Warhammer 40K universe.[/QUOTE]
…What.
Seriously, you keep confusing me with this analysis that you’re doing. You list Tau plasma rifles and Imperium Plasma rifles as different things–and yet apparently the Klingons and the Breen use the same types of disruptors? I don’t think so.
Watch DS9 sometime. One episode specifically had Major Kira go over the differences between a Starfleet Phaser III (phaser rifle), which had auto-aiming, a dozen different settings, and so forth–while the Cardassian version had a slightly higher output, two settings, and was very reliable.
There is a difference to their weapons, as they are made by different species with different levels of technology and sophistication. Now granted, they all typically have the same basic effects (stun, kill, vaporize), but that doesn’t make them the same thing.
[QUOTE]In particular, the Imperium uses a much, much wider range of melee weapons (Star Trek 8 vs. Warhammer 29). Seven of the eight Star Trek melee weapons are of Klingon or Vulcan origin.[/QUOTE]
…Okay?
Most melee weapons in Trek are not supposed to be used for warfare. The only real exception to this are the Klingons, in which case, it’s clearly a cultural issue. Melee weapons in modern warfare is dumb. It only sorta works in 40k because you have things like Orks and Space Marines that are durable enough against laser rifles to be able to use melee weapons.
Typically, a laser rifle will blow a man’s head off or put a whole in him. A phaser set to a high enough level will scorch your body. Or simply vaporize it. The kill setting will kill you, even if you’re wearing most forms of body armor (Klingon, Cardassian, etc.) and hits a chest area.
[QUOTE] The Imperium has also tweaked many ancient melee weapons with modern technology. For example, swords have been turned into chainswords. These tweaked melee weapons are far superior to anything in the Star Trek universe[/QUOTE]
As awesome as chain swords are, they are fundamentally retarded. More so than any of the silly Trek melee weapons. Those can work as weapons, even if they’re subpar weapons that require somewhat unusual training to make them anywhere close to being effective.
Chain swords are simply not good weapons.
[QUOTE]The Federation would be at a critical disadvantage in any melee situation.[/QUOTE]
Yes well, you see, Star Trek sort of has this thing called ‘artillery’ and ‘orbital support’. 40k armies and military bases of non-strategic value can be bombed from orbit. And you better hope the Imperium learns how to build transporter inhibitors or else they’re going to find a lots of their troops transported to odd ends of the planet or having commandos beamed into secure facilities.
[QUOTE]One could argue in a science fiction world of star ships that have energy weapons that can destroy worlds that melee combat ability is irrelevant but this is not always the case.[/QUOTE]
Correct, it isn’t. Urban combat can quickly degenerate into hand-to-hand. But that said, ST energy weapons are smaller, safer, more reliable, and much more powerful than 40k plasma rifles. And those are just their side arms.
[QUOTE]The Warhammer 40K universe also has a much greater number of ranged weapons (Star Trek 19 vs. Warhammer 40K 84).[/QUOTE]
Do they?
Because half of those weapons are more or less the same weapons with slight variations made by different species. You also seem to be confusing “variety” with effectiveness. The UFP’s phaser can act as a tool to stun, to cut through walls, to create heat/light, kill most humanoids with a single shot, can cause massive third and second degree burns on a target body, can vaporize a human, and can even vaporize/blow up rocks/boulders. They can also be set to widebeam, thus even making them effective at wide-range crowd control or as a flamethrower.
Now, that’s easily half a dozen thing just one Starfleet phaser pistol can accomplish. In order to mimic that, the Imperium would need a high powered torch, a flamethrower, a rifle, a stun gun, and an missile launcher or at least a grenade (though grenades can be thrown).
[QUOTE]What is not reflected in the weapons list is that Imperium has used genetic and cyborg technology to create super soldiers, the Space Marines. The Space Marines are far more powerful than any humanoid soldier in the Federation. The Space Marines have super strength, enhanced stamina, enhanced healing, enhanced durability and enhanced reflexes. They also have jump packs that enable to fly. They can carry heavy weapons and use chainswords. The Space Marines can be viewed as living weapons that have no equivalent in the Star Trek universe. Some races in the Star Trek universe such as the Angosians have attempted to create super soldiers but have not created anything close to the Space Marines. Perhaps the closest thing to an augmented humanoid in the Star Trek universe that is similar to a Space Marine would be the Borg but they have shown themselves to be slow and clumsy in close combat even if quite strong.[/QUOTE]
Um…as good as Space Marine is, they’re still limited to the fact that they’re using far inferior weapon technologies. They’re also expensive and it takes time for a chapter to make a Space Marine, as to the much faster recruiting and training standard for Starfleet (not the officers who went through the academy of course). Let’s say it costs the same amount for Starfleet to train and equipt 50 Red Shirts as it does 5 Space Marines.
Yes, the Space Marines are stronger, faster (except not because of heavy armor), more durable, and have a dozen different odd end abilities, not to mention exceptionally skilled in the use of firearms, grenades, combat tactics, and melee weapons.
But there are more red shirts, with weapons equal to small anti-tank weapons for 40k standards that fit into the palm of their hands. They also have the ability to use tricorders to locate the Space Marines from a far greater distance and are capable of setting up a flank because of it. In addition, if they brought a mini-photon grenade launcher with them, one man can easily set up one of the launchers from over a kilometer or two away while the guy next to him zero ins on the target and fires at them from relative safety (see Arena, where they estimate the target to be twelve hundred yards away–or about a kilometer and it was considered to be ‘a bit close’).
Suddenly, those 4 cool Space Marines are killed a few kilometers away from the enemy location. And if the y do get close, they’re vastly outnumbered against an enemy with weapons capable of killing them in one shot–negating their heavy armor almost entirely.
[QUOTE]The Imperium soldier also has access to a wide variety of equipment when on a mission. Some gear typically carried by an Imperium soldier includes:
Armor[/QUOTE]
Which is absolutely worthless against a phaser set to kill, save for power armor, in which case, a disintegration setting is more than adequate.
[QUOTE]Auspex (similar to a tricorder but more military in function)[/QUOTE]
You mean useless. An Auspex has a range of up to fifty meters, according to the Rogue Trader Book. Spock’s old 23rd century Tricorder could pick up the Gorn at a range of around a kilometer in Arena. And if I remember it from the Ultramarines Movie, it’s also a great deal smaller, in addition to being able to scan for life forms, gases, radiation, and pretty much a dozen different things. Hell, it apparently even has a holographic project in some models.
[QUOTE]Cameleolin (fabric that provides camouflauge)[/QUOTE]
Starfleet has suits that allow them to move around invisible on a planet, as seen in Star Trek Insurrection.
[QUOTE]Frenzon ( drugs to enhance performance)[/QUOTE]
…Yay?
[QUOTE]Jump pack (personal flyer)[/QUOTE]
Spock had rocket boots in Star Trek V that could support both his and Kirk’s weight.
[QUOTE]Med pack[/QUOTE]
…I’m curious to think why you believe that this is specific to the Imperium.
[QUOTE]Personal energy shields, just called shields (similar to what the Borg have)[/QUOTE]
Typical gear? Bull. Shit. Shields are not only incredibly expensive, but so rare that only the most trusted, most effective, and most honored leaders have them. Space Marines don’t even have wide-spread access to such technology. Maybe half a dozen–if that, has access to such a device in an entire chapter.
This is standard Borg drone shielding. It isn’t anything like what the Borg have. I’d also hazard a guess that the Borg’s adaptive shielding, which can go up to 10 megajoules of energy, is a bit more capable than the firepower that the Iron Halo’s provide.
[QUOTE]Teleport homer (this is built into the communicator of Federation personnel)[/QUOTE]
That isn’t standard equipment for Imperial soldiers. That’s standard equipment for special opps or leaders.
[QUOTE]Imperium soldiers also carry a wide variety of weapons including melee weapons such as a chain sword.[/QUOTE]
And the standard UFP soldier is going to bomb them from several klicks away while they wave that chain sword around.
[QUOTE]Typically, Starfleet personnel will go on a mission with only the following gear: tricorder, communicator and phaser. This means one on one the Imperium soldier will have greater resistance to firepower due to armor and shields, superior camouflage and tactical flight capability if the soldier has a jump pack. In general, the Imperium soldier carries far more types of military equipment that give the Imperium soldier a decisive advantage in the area of equipment in addition to the advantage they enjoy in weaponry.[/QUOTE]
There is a massive, massive difference between a Starfleet landing party meant for diplomatic missions or a small group of ship security–and then there’s Starfleet’s fully mobolized military. As stated in Paradise Lost of DS9, Starfleet was stocking up on personal shields and photon grenades (I assume by personal shields, they mean small area shields, not borg shields).
A standard UFP squad is much more likely to have a phaser rifle, a phaser pistol, and a tricorder for each of them, as well as a medical kit, a photon grenade launcher (with grenades), and communicators.
And that’s just squad level. Where the UFP shines is at the strategic level, not the tactical. And unfortunately, the strategic level trumps the tactical ones that 40k enjoys. Simple shuttles in the UFP can scan entire planets, suggesting that the actual scanning systems themselves are relatively small and can easily be transported with say a runabout or a shuttle. Things such as shuttles have firepower that exceede that of both 40k tanks and modern tanks, have better armor, shields, and they can fly faster than any modern air craft.
The Imperium soldiers are going to fail because they’re not going to come within miles of any actual UFP military base. They’ll be hit with artillery from support craft (fighters, shuttles, drones, or even runabouts) while Starfleet enjoying the show.
[QUOTE]The Imperium uses many armored land vehicles.[/QUOTE]
Large, cumbersome, and unshielded land vehicles that can’t fly and have a range limited to a few kms at best, save for artillery.
[QUOTE] The Imperial Navy has a wide variety of atmospheric flyers. In terms of vehicles, the Federation has shuttle craft for atmospheric flight and that’s about it. Shuttle craft is not generally armed but can be fitted with phasers.[/QUOTE]
Incorrect. First off, Starfleet shuttles are typically armed with lower powered phasers. Said phasers are strong enough to blast apart a semi. A charging semi as a matter of fact. In addition, they also have “hoppers”, which are presumably unarmed to be used in the case that transporters or inoperable.
[QUOTE] The Federation relies heavily on transporter technology for travel rather than on vehicles but the Imperium also has teleport technology.[/QUOTE]
1) What’s that supposed to mean? Starfleet’s transporter technology is a massive advantage. Ships like the Intrepid and the Galaxy can beam hundreds of people to and from places in seconds. A handful of ships were used to mobolize all of Earth’s ground forces on Earth during a black out in hours.
How is that bad? By the time that the first wave of Imperial troops, vehicles, and supplies have made it planet side, Starfleet has already deployed themselves and settled in. And they have the added bonus that the Imperium won’t be firing at them.
2) The Imperium’s teleporter technology is limited and again, somewhat uncommon. It rarely transports more than handful of people at one time and it’s rarely used. Space Marines never beam down. They’re forced to rely on slower, more dangerous, and more inaccurate drop pods as standard means of deployment. The Imperial Guard doesn’t even get that.
[QUOTE]A Federation star ship carries around four shuttles and each shuttle can fit four to six people comfortably.[/QUOTE]
1) Um, it’s more like 2-12 depending on the ship.
2) So what?
[QUOTE]Transporters don’t always work. If the transporter is down then the Federation has extremely limited ability to move personnel around.[/QUOTE]
Yes they do, save in freak occurrences, which happened maybe half a dozen time out of the year or due to combat damage, which was easily/quickly repaired after the fact or when an enemy is using some sort of dampening field or transporter inhibitor. And given that the Imperium doesn’t have that sort of technology, the chances of where a transporter is going to be useless to the UFP is very unlikely and easily solvable with orbital strikes.
[QUOTE]The Federation does not practice low-tech redundancy. If a low-tech system is replaced then the previous low tech system is taken out rather than kept as a redundant system. Transporters largely replace vehicles.[/QUOTE]
Um…ST does have vehicles. They have them ranging from boats to cars to jet boots to interplanetary shuttles to even interstellar shuttles. Transporters have simply replaced most of them as needs because it’s easier and better to spend two seconds beaming seven miles to work rather than taking a fifteen minute drive.
[QUOTE] Phasers replace melee weapons. [/QUOTE]
No. Phasers replaced guns. Guns replaced melee weapons on the battlefield centuries ago.
[QUOTE] This can be a problem. For example, the star ship Voyager used high tech bio-neural gel packs. These gel packs are essentialy organic computers. The gel packs cannot be replicated. When the gel packs of Voyager became infected, Voyager did not have the option of using prior none organic computers to replace the gel packs. This lack of low tech redundancy may make Federation technology much more vulnerable in extended warfare situations were possibly more delicate high tech systems start to break down.[/QUOTE]
First of all, that’s Voyager being a shitty show with lazy writing. Starfleet requires not only secondary back ups, but secondary back ups for those ones as well. This is standard procedure. You’re talking about an episode where the manual override isn’t actually a manual override.
Voyager was a series that ignored basic common sense of Starfleet. Ie, phasers didn’t kill people when set to kill and the series even had Janeway too stupid to remove Seshka’s old command privileges when she turncoat–months after the fact. Even when Counselor Troi–the freaking therapist, knew that this was standard procedure. And for a good God damn reason.
[QUOTE]4.1) Imperial Navy
The Imperial Navy is just one of the military forces available to the Imperium. The Imperium military also includes, but is not limited to, the Imperial Guard and Space Marines that act as the main infantry of the Imperium. The Imperium needs infantry to conquer and hold territory. The most powerful class star ships of the Imperial Navy are their Battleships. A Battleship can carry crews of 25,000 to 3,000,000 persons. Battleships can be as big as eight kilometers. The Imperium consists of thousands of worlds. The Imperial Navy defends a territory far, far larger than that of the Federation./QUOTE]
You also forgot the Adeptus Mechanis, who have the more advanced and innovative ships of the Imperium. One might even consider the Rogue Traders as well, since their entire job is to expand the Imperium’s power and wealth through conquest and exploration. Then of course, you have the system fleets.
And in regards to territory, no. A massive failure on your part here. The UFP has a few thousand worlds with a few trillion. The Imperium has closer to a million worlds, with something around the level of a hundred trillion.
Also, you have to take account the sophistication of technology. A large chunk of those number, if not the downright bulk of them, are slaves and crewmen, not soldiers for the battlefield. In the Federation, you occasionally have to reload the torpedo bays during a fight or a fleet engagement. In the Imperium, you have a small mob of slaves slowly moving large shells, bombs, and missiles into position by the use of a pulley system and pure muscle. You have to feed them, you have to clothe them (a little), you have to provide them for a place to sleep, a place to eat, and you have to dispose of their dead bodies while their done.
They have this, instead of just a more logical and easily implemented mechanical arm system. This isn’t even mentioning the vast design flaws in the Imperium’s ships; both their aft and their bellies are almost completely unarmed and are massive blind spots literally several kms long in some cases. Their warfare also follows closer with the early WWI and WWII design of where you just broadside targets and hope to hit something, as opposed to the much more accurate Star Trek weapon designs.
I think even Imperial missiles are either dumb bombs or at best have limited targeting, where as Starfleet torpedoes are easily capable of maneuvering themselves to adjust to the enemy’s trajectory.
[QUOTE]4.2) Starfleet
Starfleet is the main military force of the Federation and does not have access to the huge and specialized infantry forces of the Imperium but instead relies on space battles and planetary bombardment to defend the Federation. The most famous star ships of the Star Trek universe are the Enterprise series which is an example of the Dreadnought class of starships. The Enterprise is the flagship of Starfleet. The Enterprise has a crew of around 500. The length of the Enterprise is 318.2 meters. I garnered this information for the Starfleet Technical Manual. The Federation has 150 planets. If you superimpose the two galaxies of the two universes and assume the galaxies are around the same size you realize that the territory of the Imperium is about eight times larger.[/QUOTE]
What, is TNG heresy now? And again, why are you using the old Constitution class version? The Enterprise E is about 600 meters long and has a crew of about a thousand. Also, the Enterprise class was not the most famous ship. Where did you even get that? The most famous ship is probably the original 1701 Enterprise because of all the amazing missions that occurred under her via Captain James T. Kirk. The second contender would probably be the Enterprise D, which stopped the Borg from invading the Federation. Following that would be the USS Defiant, which had a long track record of fighting in the Dominion War. Also, the Starfleet Technical Manual is not canon and for good reason, as it’s horribly outdated and inaccurate.
You also refer to orbital strikes from ships as if it’s a bad thing. It isn’t. Those millions of soldiers that the Imperium drop on a planet (assuming they aren’t first shot down by planetary defenses) being easily taken out by orbital strikes is a good thing. Because the Imperium can’t do the same thing as often or as well as the UFP can (or else the whole basis of the 40k universe–the ground battles, fall apart).
[QUOTE]4.3) Conclusion
The Imperial Navy has bigger ships than Starfleet. Much bigger ships! The Imperial Navy can ferry thousands and even millions of troops in single ship versus a crew size of around 500 on the flagship of Starfleet.[/QUOTE]
Bigger =/ Better
Also, in Yesterday’s Enterprise, the Alt-Enterprise D could carry up to six thousand troops, so you really need to redo your homework.
[QUOTE]The Federation is a democratic and voluntary alliance of planets that abhors militaristic expansionism and therefore does not have the same need for infantry as the Imperium. The main mission of Starfleet is exploration not war! The main mission of the Imperial Navy is very much war and not exploration. The Imperial Navy is far superior militarily to Starfleet. Despite the superiority of the Imperial Navy compared to Starfleet, there are certain scenarios were Starfleet could win and this will be explored in the scenario section of this essay.[/QUOTE]
This is such an oversimplification of what Starfleet is it makes my head spin. Yes, Starfleet doesn’t care for military expansionism. Nor is it designed to make war.
That does not suddenly make one superior to the other. Sparta would not stand against a dozen squads of troops from any military third world country today, let alone a second or first world power. In that same stroke, the Imperium is not a better military power because they have a massive industry. Their weapons are archaic, poorly designed, and involve mass napolian charges as a means of combat tactics. Their ships involves massive amounts of slave labor that could easily be replaced with far more advanced technologies. Even technologies that the Imperium shares with the UFP, such as the transporter, are horribly inadequate compared to the UFP’s more advanced transporters, which can beam hundreds of people onto the planet. A handful of ships can mobilize an entire planet. The Imperium requires a large fleet of transports and without orbital assets, it would probably take them weeks at best to remobilize a million troops where as Starfleet can literally do it in a few hours, maybe a day given the level of organization required. All instantly and safely while the Imperium transports can be destroyed by long range weapons.
[QUOTE]Scenario 1 – Federation vs. Imperium Period!
This scenario assumes that neither side receives help from super races or help from near humans that are not part of the Federation or Imperium. The Imperium has far superior numbers and this advantage alone would give the Imperium a decisive advantage. The Imperium consists of thousands of worlds including hive worlds that have huge populations far greater than any world in the Federation. The Federation consists of 150 planets.[/QUOTE]
No. The UFP has 150 MEMBER PLANETS. In TOS, about a century before the setting is now in the 24th century, the UFP had expanded to at least a thousand planets–one might argue considerably more since Kirk had been talking about humans. In TNG era, we see a large amount of colonization and peaceful expansion going on. The UFP could easily have 2-5 thousand worlds and it wouldn’t be a stretch at all.
The Imperium consists of about a ~1,000,000 worlds.
So yes, there is a massive population in favor of the Imperium, but your facts here are all wrong.
[QUOTE]As if this numerical advantage was not enough, the Imperium also has a much wider range of weapons and equipment at its disposal and has a decisive advantage in this area as well.[/QUOTE]
I’ve beaten this into the ground by now, but it’s worth saying again that not only were your lists incomplete due to ignoring the difference between alien weapon designs in Trek, but not in 40k, but these variations do not make Imperial weapons better than Star Trek weapons, which act as army swiss guns.
[QUOTE] Finally the Imperium has super soldiers, the Space Marines, that have no equivalent in the Federation.[/QUOTE]
Yes, because genetically engineered supersoldiers are outlawed in the Federation due to the Augments fiasco. If the UFP did want to make super soldiers, look to the Jem’Hadar; they don’t need to eat, or sleep, they can walk through security fields, cloak themselves, are about three times stronger than humans (and yet aren’t much bigger, indicating very dense muscle mass), they’re fully grown in three days, and are religiously obedient to their masters. Even their white drug addiction was a built in safety made by the Founders.
[QUOTE]The Space Marines are masters of melee combat that are far, far superior to their Federation counterparts.[/QUOTE]
Yes. And if this were the age of the sword or if phasers couldn’t vaporize a man with a push of a button, that might count for something. As it is, it doesn’t. The likelyhood of a Space Marine killing dozens of red shirts before they can fire at him on level 16 is very, very unlikely.
[QUOTE]The Space Marines are also master’s of turning war in space into melee combat.[/QUOTE]
Not really, no. You don’t turn a war into melee. You don’t try and change reality to fit your combat style. That’s suicide. What you do is you change your tactics to suit the reality. In this case, the Imperium has heavy armor that is effective against most forms if Imperium and Xeno weaponry, save heavy or large volumes of it. Ie, power armor. The Imperium also faces numerous species of xenos that are highly resistant to basic Imperial weaponry such as lasguns. To the point where mass charge is effective.
And even then, it’s more of a cultural thing as with the Klingons than it is an effective strategy.
[QUOTE]The Space Marines know how to board space ships and infiltrate heavily guarded positions.[/QUOTE]
You do realize modern Starfleet ships have security fields in place to restrict movement of intruders right? And that they can beam intruders wherever they want and remove their weapons, right?
[QUOTE]The Space Marines could for example attack Star Fleet Command in San Francisco in a commando raid and destroy the leadership of Star Fleet overnight. The Federation in turn would have little success launching a similar commando operation against Imperium targets that would be defended by Space Marines.[/QUOTE]
…What?
1) How are they going to get to Earth? Starfleet has incredibly advanced sensors. They’ll see the ship coming before it reaches Sol’s inner system.
2) How are they going to know which compound it is? And why would they even assume San Francisco in the first place?
3) In a time of war, what makes you think the facility isn’t going to have a shield around it capable of resisting a nuclear strike?
4) And while this would be a shocking and heinous crime within the UFP, just how do you propose that this would bring the UFP to a grinding halt? You do know how military chain of command works, don’t you? Most of their combat strategies probably involve large amounts of computer simulation and then looking at what they have and working with it. While I expect there to be some degree of quality loss in the death of a good leader, just why do you think it would count for much?
Even the Founders knew better than to try that. And they’re the ones who can shapeshift into just about anything they want, fool sensor readings, and apparently even telepaths.
[QUOTE]One could create a sub-scenario were the Imperium is invading the Federation and cannot afford to squander forces needed to defend the Imperium home territory and fields a fleet more or less of the same number of ships and men as that of the Federation. Even if numbers were equal, the superior weapons and equipment technology of the Imperium and the superiority of the Space Marines would give the Imperium a decisive advantage. Even in this sub-scenario the Imperium would win.[/QUOTE]
Um…you gravely overestimate the Imperium’s military assets. The Imperium Navy proper has ‘tens of thousands of ships’. That’s 20,000 – 90,000. The UFP has ~30,000 ships as per the Dominion War according to the producer of the show. The Space Marine chapters mostly consists of small fleets with maybe a total of a three ships or so that could be considered as a real threat to another starship. You also of course, have the Adeptus Mechanus, though I doubt their fleet is all that large considering how paranoid the Imperium is.
At the absolute best you have two hundred thousand military warships. Let’s look at this from a national security prospective as well. The Imperium is under constant ork attacks, is at a bit of a stand off with the Tau, suffers from Eldar raids, suffers from Necron raids, and suffers from chaos incursions. To top it off, they’ve got several large Tyranid fleets making a B-line right for Earth and the Imperial Navy has thus far have mostly only been able to slow them down, not stop them. Even the Ultramarine’s mini-empire took heavy damage from the Tyranid swarms.
And you want the Imperium to start a war with albeit heretical, but otherwise non-violent nation in a parallel universe? The Imperium can’t even gather the resources to streamroll the Tau. Keep in mind that the Tau are smaller than the UFP was at its founding. They have maybe a few dozen planets. Less than a quarter of the UFP’s member world list.
Meanwhile, thanks to the UFP’s strong pursuit of peace, its neighbors are not going to instantly take advantage of the Imperium’s aggressive actions to senselessly invade the UFP. In fact, the Klingons have an alliance with the UFP, the same way that the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus are basically allied Empires under the banner of one religious figure.
And you can bet that the Klingons have a military strength equal, if not larger than the UFP, due to their more militarism culture. So in order to match the UFP and the Klingon Empire, the Imperium needs ~60,000 of its warships. Easily the large bulk of the Imperial Navy is going to be there, with a massive commitment by the Chapter and the Adeptus. And that’s just the fleets. You have to dig the UFP out because they have armed stations, orbital platforms, and they’ve even been known to be capable of mining entire planets or systems.
You’re talking easily 80,000 ships or possibly a 100,000 ships and billions of occupation troops.
This isn’t that the UFP can maybe hold the Imperium off. This is an outright statistical impossibility for the Imperium to do. They cannot wage such a war against the UFP and the Klingons. Even without the Klingons, you’re looking at a massive commitment by the Imperium when they have far pressing matters.
[QUOTE]Scenario 3 – All Near Humans in the Star Trek Universe vs. All Near Humans in the Warhammer 40K Universe.
This assumes mortal enemies of the same universe unite in the face of a greater threat from outside their universe. The super races of both universes decide this battle between the ants is none of their business and stay out of the war. The near humans are more powerful in the Warhammer 40K universe overall than the near humans in the Star Trek Universe. Warhammer 40K wins in this scenario[/QUOTE]
But what of the Borg? See, this where the problem comes in via your own categorization. The Borg are not god-like. And not in the same standard as you apply for the Necrons and the Imperium.
[QUOTE]Conclusion
Star Trek wins in scenarios 2 and 4. Warhammer 40K wins in scenarios 1, 3, and 5. A scenario approach is a powerful conceptual tool that can also be applied to the Star Trek vs. Star Wars debate.
After I wrote the above article I ran into the following graphic presented below and as they say a picture is worth a thousand words![/QUOTE]
Most of your scenarios are horribly stilted, ignore the political and social climates, and the very categories you use are not fairly applied across the board. At all. In a proper scenario, the UFP is just too large a conquest for the Imperium. The fact that the Tau still exist and have a strong presence in the Imperium space that they are close to speaks strongly of how incapable the Imperium is at dealing with even smaller empires due to larger concerns and a thin fleet.
Good points! Maybe this article is due for a major reewrite given all the great comments!
NO NO NO NO
I don’t know much about star trek but your imperial argument is just wrong.
first, plasma weaponry. the trekkys may have a kill setting, but imperial plasma weapons are described as sun guns for a bloody reason. in the backstory, they are described as being able to melt through pretty much anything.
Armour. space marine armour is among one of the most advanced creation the imperium has. it is more than capable of standing up to an imperial lasgun, which is said to be able to blow a mans arm off easily, and those shots simply glance of a space marine. your also forgetting terminator armour, which is a military adaptation of maintenance suits designed for use in a ships plasma core. in that environment, the armour more than likely suffers extreme heat and frequent slashes of plasma, so what do you think a phaser is gonna do to that eh?
Ships.
imperial star ships are designed to take days, weeks, even months, of constant pounding from cannons with barrels more than 50-100 metres wide. they aren’t designed for long distance fighting, they’re meant for up close and personal slugfests, and imperial captains are masters at getting themselves into a position when the only thing that can beat them is something bigger. you say that the imperial ships underbelly is unarmed? wrong. imperial ships are coated with anti torpedo, boarding craft and missile weaponry. and these aren’t just little one man machine guns, they’re huge weapons in their own right. space marine fleets are actually around 12 odd ships, and two or three are normally battle barges, and these capital ships are designed specifically for planetary assaults.
as for the range issue you bring up, the imperium has lance weaponry, huge laser cannons with hundreds of thousands of kilometre ranges and are almost instant hitting and extremely powerful. does the fact they are normally used just to finish of cripples enemy ships now suggest to you the utter power of an imperial broadside salvo?
Your numbers on the imperial fleet are also massively inaccurate, with the imperial navy consisting of easily millions of ships. the tau empire are only still around because the imperium has, for the last 10000 years in its history, been fighting off pretty much every other living thing in the galaxy, I’d love to see the federation do that.
you say that its a bad idea for the space marines to turn space warfare into melee? if the imperium gets to fight on its terms, which it will because the standard tactic is to either get side by side or too ram enemy ships (their prows are built specifically for this, with ones on battleships being several hundred metres of solid metal). the space marines are assault close combat troops at their prime, and boarding an enemy ship would clearly be a brilliant idea instead of them just sitting in their ships waiting. also, space marines can be teleported into enemy ships, and what ever this thing about teleporting their weapons out of their hands, that will only make the federation soldiers deaths more messy, as marines are brilliant at hand to hand combat. if the marines knew they would loose their weapons. they could just equip themselves with powerfists, humungous weapons capable of punch through several feet of steel wall and pummelling the crap out of multiple red shirts in a swing. ill give you one thing, it costs the imperium the equivalent of more like several thousand red shirts to train a single space marine. but if you have one chapter of a thousand space marines, they can invade a planet in days, and if you where to consider the legions of old, where marine’s where deployed in hundreds of thousands, they could take over a well defended planet in mere hours.
your description of drop pods being a bad idea is very wrong. the drop pods are like cannon balls, fired down onto the planets surface. drop pods can smash through anything. when the salamanders chapter attacked the dark eldars capital, the commargh, they used their drop pods to smash down entire sky scrapers several kilometres tall. and that’s not even their intended purpose. when a drop pod lands, firstly the impact will knock red shirts onto their arses within a radius of 50-100 metres, secondly the space marines then take full use of this, bursting forth instantly with bolters up and firing, killing tens of red shirts in seconds. all the space marines tactics are focused on hitting so hard and so fast that no one can with stand it, and they do this brilliantly. there is no way to stop a drop pod once its launched, it is gonna land on target.
and some contain dreadnoughts, extremely powerful walkers that require anti tank power too take down, not just some crappy phaser pew pews.
chaos gods and the emperor of mankind
every argument I’ve read so far on here has got this wrong. the chaos gods are only powerful in the warp. they also never take active part in combat, but in the warp, who ever this Q guy is, he would have no power in the warp over them, and the emperor of man kind is more powerful than those four put together. the emperors soul is powered by the faith of trillions of souls, and if he was to return to the mortal plain, nothing, and I mean nothing, could stand before him. if the chaos gods where too do the same, they could devour planets in minutes and their daemon army’s are truly epic in scale. if they where to be deployed against the imperium in their full then the empire of man would surely fall in its current state. but this is just the entire imperium vs the federation, and without a doubt the federation would fall,
for the imperium is humungous. trillions of guardsmen, each the equivalent of a red shirt, with millions of tanks and thousands of titans, combat walkers that the federation would have to employ their ships torpedo’s to take down. and this isn’t mentioning the million odd space marines the imperium has at its disposal. these million marines could easily invade the federation alone, as the red shirts would need anti tank weaponry to take them down. if this was used against the imperial guard, yes they would die in their hundreds each second, but they can take those sort of casualty’s easily in their stride.
you mentioned that the space marine wouldn’t be fast because of their power armour, wrong, the armour makes them even faster, and far stronger, capable of punching through tank armour with their bare hands, and completely pulping said tank if equip with power fists. to be honest, all the imperium needs is the 100, 000 terminators at its disposal (each chapter has 100 terminators, and there’s 1000 chapters) and each to be equipped with a pair of power firsts. nothing would stand before them and only star ship weapons could take them down, and said star ships would be burning hulks if they attempted to attack the imperial ships that would be in orbit where ever the terminator’s where deployed. and the other 900,000 marines would easily be able to split and deploy all over the federation, destroying any key strategic points.
overall, in imperium vs federation alone, the federation might as well pack their bags and jump out their airlocks. they ain’t standing a chance. as for the entire universes against one another, I don’t know enough to say for sure about the star trek side, but for the war hammer side, with the exception of the elder, dark elder and tau, all the other factions are numbered in the trillions of warriors, all ready to smash the crap outta every bloody trekky in sight.
oh I forgot, technology. imperial tech is stagnating now but, bar the teleported tech, they kick the crap outta ST. you may think that a bolter is outta date, but come on, it fires explosive rounds that’d destroy a black hawk in one shot. and they have heavy bolters that unleash hundreds of even bigger rounds a minute, not to forget autocannons, that have a Rate of fire in the hundreds a second. please, tell me anything that’d stand up to that.
[QUOTE]1) Weapon and Sensor Range: On what do you base the idea that Star Trek weapon ranges and sensors are superior? Star Trek ships typically engage in the hundreds of METERS, while Imperial ships engage in the hundreds of thousands of KILOMETERS.[/QUOTE]
Um, no.
Star Trek is a TV series, so they show the ships at relatively close range, even when they’re said to be at much further ranges. We also know that ships can and do engage at the 200,000 to 300,000 km mark. And all the art and the visual displays of 40k space battles show them to be in the range of a few dozen kilomters at best.
This is just common in sci-fi, as otherwise the ships would be too far apart to actually show to each other.
[QUOTE]2) Even if Star Trek weapon ranges were superior, Star Trek weapons aren’t. They dish out damage in the megaton to gigaton range. 40k ships deal damage in the petaton to teraton range.[/QUOTE]
This is just dishonest. If the Imperium had teraton to petaton firepower, then ground forces would be entirely irrelevant. Laser rifles and turrets would easily vaporize orks in single shots. It’d also make the entire concept of Exterminatus specific weapons utterly useless. In fact, Battlefleet Gothic had scenarios designed around only one ship being capable of performing the Exterminatus because only it had the special weaponry. If ships could toss out teratons or petatons, then of what use would that be.
This is also an unfair means of pandering to the more silly firepower displays of 40k, but ignoring the sillier ones of the UFP as well–where they are stated to burn away crust and mantle of a planet the Romulans and the Cardassians wanted destroyed.
[QUOTE]According to the show runners of DS9, Starfleet has about 30,000 ships. Simply put, the entirety of Starfleet doesn’t have enough firepower to bring down even one of the Imperium’s most powerful ships, much less defeat them in open warfare, as the Imperium has a fleet numbering anywhere from the hundreds of thousands to the millions.[/QUOTE]
There is no evidence to suggest that the Imperium has millions of warp capable ships. Most of their ships are bound to their system.
[QUOTE]3) Star Trek ships can’t fight at warp speed as you can only move in a straight line while traveling in warp.[/QUOTE]
Only Paris said that and Voyager was notorious for getting Trek technology and Starfleet protocols wrong. Because it had shitty writing.
[QUOTE]Yes, they can fire in warp speed, but combat always takes place at impulse speed. Why? Because you can’t maneuver in warp. Weapons are typically only fired at warp when one ship is fleeing from another. But generally, Star Trek ships don’t engage in combat at warp speed. And even if we presume that they did so, for whatever reason, and thus couldn’t be attacked by Imperial ships… who cares? They can’t harm Imperial ships, anyway.[/QUOTE]
You can maneuver in warp. You just can’t maneuver well and apparently ships have found a way to overcome the warp advantage speeds that we saw in practice in TOS. That aside, the Imperium doesn’t have warp engines. They can’t move faster than light without jumping into the warp. That means that the UFP doesn’t have to worry about maneuverability since their enemies can’t even come close to hitting them.
[QUOTE]4) The Federation doesn’t have cloaking technology.[/QUOTE]
Yes they do. Archer stole a Suliban cloaking technology in the 22nd century, Kirk stole a Romulan cloaking device in the 23rd century, then he later stole a Klingon cloaking device in that same century, and in the 24th century the UFP had a working experimental phase cloaking device while the Romulans–the most cloak happy faction in the Alpha-Beta Quadrant, hadn’t even gotten it close to working properly. The UFP even had a cloaked holodeck ship in Star Trek Insurrection (also illegal). So yeah, the do have cloaking technology. Very sophisticated cloaking technology at that.
The UFP isn’t allowed to USE cloaking technology. But that doesn’t mean that they’re incapable of detecting it. Unless your ship can hide its gravity, I highly doubt that the Imperium is going to be sneaking
[QUOTE]5) Your tactic is something which has never been depicted in any episode of Star Trek. Ever.[/QUOTE]
No, but they have shown automated defenses before. So if they were to say, set up weapon platforms, mines, and a station right next to the entry point of both galaxies, they’d be able to keep anyone from getting in.
[QUOTE]6) Whatever it was they were going to use to make the Bajoran star go nova, that was a Dominion weapon, not a Federation weapon.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and their chief science officer instantly understood what they were doing when she saw the materials that were in the runabout and concluded (correctly) that they were going to blow up the sun. So that clearly indicates that the technology is not beyond their understanding.
Even if we just assume that Jadzia is just awesome (she really isn’t), the fact is that we saw in Half a Life that the UFP could accidentally cause a nova from a newly forming Red Giant. In Second Sight, they even had a famous Federation scientist intent on reigniting a dead star. And they were planning to jump out of the system at maximum warp just in case they accidentally caused it to go supernova. Then of course, there was Harry Kim’s theory that a gravemetric warhead could be used to detonate a protostar an create a wormhole.
So yes, they do have the technology.
[QUOTE]And even if the Federation had it, does that really strike you as plausible? That they’d suddenly decide to start annihilating star systems? Especially when it won’t even save them, anyway (See Point 8)?[/QUOTE]
Well, actually it could. See, if we assume that both ends are relatively the same in both universes, than Holy Terra isn’t that far away. If the UFP had to, detonating the Holy Terra’s sun and effectively end their empire.
[QUOTE]6) Imperial sensors can detect cloaked ships, as they can spot the far more technologically advanced Necrons, who also use cloaking technology. So those drones which you think are so awesome? They’d get spotted and shot down by the system defenses before anyone had a reason to be concerned. Incidentally, the Imperium has cloaking technology, too. Here’re two quotes from the Last Chancers: Kill Team novel.[/QUOTE]
Can you please quantify this technology? Because Trek cloaking hides them visually, protects against sonar, and can mask their gravity. You effectively need to find them using a long range tachyon scan (ie, subatomic particles that move faster than the speed of light–something I don’t think the Imperium has) and anti-protons (which they also don’t have, let alone use as a scanning device).
[QUOTE]7) The Imperium spans millions of worlds across the entirety of the Milky Way galaxy. At maximum warp, it’d take a Federation ship over 70 years to get from one side of the galaxy to another. So the Federation war plan will take a century or so and millions of drones to accomplish?[/QUOTE]
1) The Imperium has a million worlds. This is repeated numerous times throughout their fluff sources.
2) The Imperium isn’t really fast either. While warp can cause massive jumps on either end of the scale, the White Dwarf magazine put their ships at having a sort of base average, with typical jumps of 1000 LY taking 5.8 years to cover the same distance and a maximum of 35 years. So Imperial ships are about twice as fast as UFP ships.
[QUOTE]8) The Federation can spend all the resources it likes, but there’s no possible way it can defend against the Imperium when even the weakest ship in the Imperial Navy is more powerful than a Borg cube.[/QUOTE]
Except it isn’t. The Imperium relies heavily, heavily on ground combat forces. Teraton firepower is so powerful that any sort of infantry is pointless. They should have the equal to bolos, not World War II tank rejects with some clunk tech strapped to the side.
The weapons that come close to being as powerful as a simple Starfleet hand weapon typically involve large, cumbersome pieces or dangerous plasma weapons. So how is it that you propose that the Imperium has this sort of firepower?
That’s not even getting into the issue of this contradicting the whole point of an Exterminatus. If their normal ships can lash out teratons–petatons of volleys, then why would they even have such devices? They’re entirely useless. They simply do not justify the cost and importance that the series places on them if one ship could do the same thing.
[QUOTE]A fleet of 30,000 ships, equal in number to what Starfleet possesses, is only a drop in the bucket in comparison to the vast numbers of the Imperial fleets. At 150 worlds, the Imperium would be able to unleash 200 ships to every single Federation worlds at once.[QUOTE]
You are confusing size for industrial capability. For one thing, the Imperium has been stated to have tens of thousands of ships for the Imperial Navy, which is the largest navel force they have. At best, they outnumber Starfleet 3 to 1. With the Adeptus and the Chapters and maybe even the Rogue Traders, you probably have 6 to 1 or maybe even 9 to 1. Over two million ships? Don’t make me laugh. If they had over two million ships, then entire planets wouldn’t go without seeing an Imperial cruiser for generations.
[QUOTE]And because Imperial ships are so much faster, there’s absolutely nothing Starfleet would be able to do to stop the Imperium from reducing every world in the Federation to molten slag. Let me put it in perspective.[/QUOTE]
They aren’t much faster. Long term, yes, they can travel much faster than the UFP. And that is an advantage. But there is a disadvantage to the warp, which is that your entire fleet doesn’t necessarily arrive at the same time and ships can get lost or be lost to the warp. UFP warp drive however, is relatively safe and ships don’t get lost to eldtrich abominations.
[QUOTE]The Federation is 8,000 light years across. One of the fastest starships in service, the Intrepid Class (Voyager), which moves at Warp 9.975, would take eight years to cross from one end of the Federation. The slowest Imperial ships, however, can cross the Federation in 8-32 DAYS (according to the 2nd edition Codex: Imperial Guard).[/QUOTE]
And is likely an outlier given that Imperium ships are not supposed to be fast responders. Entire systems go generations without seeing these ships and help can take months or years to arrive when a system has been invaded. At the speeds you point to, the Imperium should be able to respond to most invasion in days everytime and their patrols should mean that at most only a few years measure the distance between them.
And again, there is an official chart that points to the fact that it would take a ship between 8 months to four years, with two years average. For the UFP, it would take them 4.6 years on their “official” behind-the-scenes chart. So yeah, they’re faster, but they’re not so fast that the UFP can’t adapt or adjust themselves.
[QUOTE]There’s simply no way the Federation, even if it did have the firepower to fend off the Imperium, which it doesn’t, could possibly mount a defense fast enough to counter any Imperial offensive.[/QUOTE]
Your entire firepower argument is dismissive, since it relies upon generously interpreted figures that break the entire setting. If anything, the Imperium is pound for pound probably fairly weaker than the UFP’s ships. Sure you can point to this and that or some figurative comment of ‘the power of a star’ for 40k, but I can just as easily point to say ‘terrible gigajoules of weaponry’.
The fact is, both sides probably have ships that are more or less as powerful as the other. And the Imperium simply can’t bring a majority of its forces to bear.
[QUOTE]Incidentally, this should give a hint of just how vast the scale difference between the Imperium and the Federation is. On the left you’ll see one of the largest and one of the smallest warships in the Imperial Navy. On the right you’ll see a lot of familiar Starfleet ships.[/QUOTE]
Yes…and? Size =/ power. Just look at their weapons. A full blown Imperial Guardsmen laser rifle can at best, blow off a head. That’s not really very impressive. A modern bullet could do that. The difference is mostly in terms of range and speed of the laser as opposed to a bullet.
Or look at a bolter. They fire a .998 shell that impacts into the target and explodes like a firecracker, tearing up someone’s insides. And the bolter is semi-automatic. But look at a phaser. It’s smaller than the actual cartridge for the bolter and it can do a great deal more damage.
[QUOTE]By the way, here’s a video of the Imperium destroying a planet. Note two things:
1) The destruction takes about 30 seconds.
2) A single Space Marine Battle Barge inflicts the damage (there’re other Imperial ships present, but only the Battle Barge is firing).[/QUOTE]
Um…yeah. Because it’s using an Exterimatus weapon.
[QUOTE]Captain America | February 5, 2012 at 2:25 pm | Reply
And here’re the effects of a single Cyclonic Warhead on a planet.[/QUOTE]
No, the cyclonic warhead were the ones in the other display. You require multiple shots, if I remember correctly. That was probably a different weapon or at least a different model than what we typically are told they carry.
But again, how does this prove what you claim? Why have an exterminatus weapon if your ships can already kill all life on a planet without it?
I totally agree with you!
I think it is entirely possible for the warp to exist in the ST universe. In the 40k background the various psychic races (humans, elder, orks etc) were created by the Old Ones to combat the C’tan and the Necrons. It was their untrained minds stirred up by violent emotions during the war which made the Warp into the horrifying nightmare realm it is in the current story. Before that it was just a relatively tranquil sub dimension. <—- i see your point and have thought of that too but the 2 universes are diffrent thus certain elements would counter each one, the warp maybe countered but certain elements on the star trek universe might not work too if brought within the imperium. Yes they might overlap but still too diffrent. who knows warp drive may not work on the imperium just as the warp is the primary method for ftl in that space.
btw i thought of that scenario with just a a rift that naturally occured, not stu vs 40k,.and thought of their nature, the 40k guys would likely fight one another while going thru the rift, the eldar seeing visions of borg-necron abominations and try to manipulate what they can to stop that vision. chaos would likely be racing to the first star system in order to errect their corrupt altar to summon a warp storm, the space marines well they might be chasing their rivals and the tau ork and tyranids would likely jump in the party. on the fed side the q would likely see things first if its entertaining to him and pop up later if he finds it interesting. the fed alliance would likely try to make contact and see things futile try to find ways to close the anomally. the borg would be interested if they find something to assimilate with the new races ( feds might be against this too ). and if later if the Q decides to raise the emperor, i dun think he would be hitting the feds or any on the stu universe,..well not yet lolz
Might be an interesting ST story. The ST warp is just starting to stir and the telepathic races of ST warn the Federation and of course a mission must go forward.
The main reason the Imperium uses vast land armies is their cultural predilection for conquest and empire building. They see themselves as an ever expanding empire. Because of this they tend to want to use the planets they take from the enemy. Also compared to starships imperial guard regiments are really cheap. Both in time and resources. Lasguns, flak armour, and basic kit are pretty easy for even the most basic economy to produce. More developed worlds can manage tanks and artillery. Every world in the imperium is required to raise regiments. And it is this levy that gives them an almost inexhaustible army.
Imperial Navy cruisers do have enough firepower to level entire continents. However it is mostly concentrated into 17th century style broadsides which are not the most accurate thing for planetary bombardment. There are lance batteries that fire in a similar way to ST phasers. They are used for precision strikes on a planet as well as cutting through thick armour and shields.
Exterminating all life on a planet with standard weapons is possible, but would take a long time. Weeks to months depending on the size of the fleet and the topography of the planet. It’s just a matter of lancing the most obvious targets and randomly flattening continents with the batteries until you’re satisfied that everything is dead.
That’s time that the imperium generally can’t or won’t waste as their fleet is overstretched as it is. So the exterminatus weapons are used to do the job thoroughly in a few minutes and the fleet moves on to more pressing matters.
One reason I’m not particularly convinced of the federations ability to fight the imperial navy in space is that the shields of the IN are built to stand up to this continent flattening firepower for several minutes at least.
Mind you. Once they are down there is nothing stopping them from transporting in a few torpedoes to the fusion reactor 😉
Transporting torpedoes to the fusion reactor is a great idea!
[QUOTE]foxhugh | March 31, 2012 at 1:50 pm | Reply
Transporting torpedoes to the fusion reactor is a great idea![/QUOTE]
Not really, no. Transporters require that no shield is in the way to perform the trick. Last I checked, Imperium ships do have shields. Although…I think they don’t stop their own transporters, so depending on how those work, they may not be able to stop transporters.
Also, you need to be in closer range with transporters than firing a torpedo (maximum combat range is hundreds of thousands of kilometers).
[QUOTE]Aurenian | March 31, 2012 at 1:20 pm | Reply
The main reason the Imperium uses vast land armies is their cultural predilection for conquest and empire building. They see themselves as an ever expanding empire. Because of this they tend to want to use the planets they take from the enemy.[/QUOTE]
Land armies aren’t bad. Land armies that use the same tactics as WWI and early WWII is. And that has to do with the stagnation and religious indoctrination that punishes innovation. So you have clunk-tech that results in people having advance technology, but treating it much in the same way that Star Wars does.
Now, don’t get me wrong. That isn’t bad for a series. It’s what makes 40k work. That’s the whole concept behind the series. But that is how they roll and there’s a good reason why such tactics were horribly outdated in WWII; because it was suicidal. And that needs to be taken into consideration when you’re having them face against another group that does use modern combat tactics (even if the actors and directors can’t show it properly to save their life).
[QUOTE]Also compared to starships imperial guard regiments are really cheap. Both in time and resources. Lasguns, flak armour, and basic kit are pretty easy for even the most basic economy to produce. More developed worlds can manage tanks and artillery. Every world in the imperium is required to raise regiments. And it is this levy that gives them an almost inexhaustible army.[/QUOTE]
Which still doesn’t excuse the lack of technological and military progression. It being cheap is really just an excuse and a convenience wrapped into one. The terrible state of their clunk tech is largely cultural. Even the weapons they should have, such as small-scale tactical nukes or high powered laser cannons of such power are nowhere to be seen.
[QUOTE]Imperial Navy cruisers do have enough firepower to level entire continents. However it is mostly concentrated into 17th century style broadsides which are not the most accurate thing for planetary bombardment.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I don’t doubt that. But where people seem to think that gives the Imperium the rights to gigatons or teratons of energy is simply baffling to me and is of course, a byproduct of the Star Trek vs. Star Wars debate.
For those of you who don’t know, one of the major discussions between those two franchises devolved into a dickwaving contest of firepower; who could get the highest yields and argue them while ignoring evidence of other firepower capabilities. Saxton is most famous, with his suggestion of 200 gigaton turbolasers for Acclamator class transport ships (which in G and T canon, don’t actually have weapons on them…), though I’ve seen arguments from both sides of the isle in regards to absurd firepower (hell, I once argued them myself…).
It’s a long story, but the fact is that this has lead to a gross underappreciation for what kiloton and megaton weapons are capable of in favor of a senseless and absurd dickwaving contest between fanboys. The fact is, that any ship that has nuclear capability and can fire it in large number is going to be able to scorch a continent.
Kilotons and megatons are both powerful enough that you can scorch a planet within the timeframe of hours, days, weeks, or a month or two, depending on what sort of damage you want to do to the planet in question.
But when people bring in teraton to petaton broadsides for Imperium ships, that’s an entirely different matter. It isn’t going to take you very long with one ship, let alone a dozen or so that an Imperial fleet will carry. The whole point of a super powerful exterminatus weapon suddenly becomes moot.
The Imperium’s firepower is probably in the range of high kilotons to low megatons. It still sort of makes me marvel that ground battles are as critical as they are, but it isn’t flipping pants on head retarded when their yields are still limited to more realistic numbers.
[QUOTE]There are lance batteries that fire in a similar way to ST phasers. They are used for precision strikes on a planet as well as cutting through thick armour and shields.[/QUOTE]
Lance batteries are high powered lasers. Phasers are very different in that regard, thanks to their ability to disintegrate objects.
[QUOTE]Exterminating all life on a planet with standard weapons is possible, but would take a long time. Weeks to months depending on the size of the fleet and the topography of the planet. It’s just a matter of lancing the most obvious targets and randomly flattening continents with the batteries until you’re satisfied that everything is dead.
That’s time that the imperium generally can’t or won’t waste as their fleet is overstretched as it is. So the exterminatus weapons are used to do the job thoroughly in a few minutes and the fleet moves on to more pressing matters.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Which is why gigaton and petaton weapon claims are simply absurd. They undermine a large core of the Battlefleet Gothic fluff for the sake of dickwaving.
[QUOTE]One reason I’m not particularly convinced of the federations ability to fight the imperial navy in space is that the shields of the IN are built to stand up to this continent flattening firepower for several minutes at least.[/QUOTE]
And Starfleet can’t do the same thing? In A Taste of Armageddon, Kirk orders Scotty to perform General Order 24. That order involves Scotty giving the planet twenty-four hours (I think) to surrender or he destroys the entire habitable surface of their world. With one ship. In the TOS era.
Or Trouble With Tribbles, where the Klingons are mentioned to have sent a fleet to obliterate the Klingon homeworld. Or in Survivors, where the Enterprise D investigates the incident of an outer colony coming under an alien attack–the planet was left a barren, rocky surface after the alien warship was done with it. All lakes, oceans, and so forth were gone.
I can also point to TDiC, where 20 ships plan to destroy the planets crust and mantle in about six or seven hours, but that’s sort of an outlier and hopefully involves super weapons. But there is also mention of the Defiant having enough firepower to turn the surface of a planet into a scorched cinder in Broken Link.
So yeah, the Imperium isn’t really pulling ahead in the firepower debate because they can dish out heavy damage to a continent. Starfleet does that too. They eat the equal to Tsar Bombas as part of their standard combat situations.
Forgot about the shields!
It should go like this:
The Imperial Fleet appears at every Federation planet and lands its troops. Here’s what’s going to happen:
In the urban environment of the ST universe, hand-to-hand combat will be very decisive.
Also, arguing about firepower is quite pointless. Why? Because its not as if the UFP is going to destroy its own bloody planets
[QUOTE]foxhugh | March 31, 2012 at 3:28 pm | Reply
Forgot about the shields![/QUOTE]
Why?
[QUOTE]Captain America | July 4, 2011 at 11:50 am | Reply
In a straight up fight between the Imperium and the Federation, the Federation would not only lose, it’d lose badly and quickly. The firepower levels between the two is just so vast that the Federation can’t possibly hope to compete. In all honesty, a single battleship could lay waste to the entire Federation, nevermind the full force of the Imperial Fleet, which numbers anywhere from hundreds of thousands to millions of ships. By contrast, Ron Moore stated that when thinking about fleet sizes in DS9, the writers assumed that Starfleet had about 30,000 ships. So if one assumes that the Imperium has about one million ships, Starfleet is already outnumbered 33-to-1.[/QUOTE]
Just a quick note, anyone else find it a wee bit ironic that a poster named ‘Captain America’ is debating for the UK sci-fi over the American one? Not a snipe or anything, just something I find amusing.
Again sir, I ask for your source on numbers. Because the only source that I know on numbers in regard to the Imperial fleet is White Dwarf Issue 139 and 140, which says:
I–MPERIAL SPACESHIPS
The whole structure of the Imperium is founded upon the craft that transport its armies and officials across the galaxy. It is the fleets that carry vital food to the starving hive-worlds, and which bring technology and equipment to the agricultural planets. Without its fleets the Imperium would soon collapse and humanity would perish in many parts of the galaxy.
Interstellar craft may be privately owned but most operate on behalf of one of the Imperial organisations. Of these, the Imperial Fleet is the largest, numbering tens of thousands of warships and hundreds of thousands of cargo vessels of varying sizes.–
Tens of thousands of warships. That’s not exactly the 990,000 ships you seem to be suggesting. Not unless the Imperium is going to be sending cargo vessels in waves, which I can’t at all imagine as being a good idea.
What we’re looking at is a fleet between 20,000 to 90,000. Lower end, their fleet is roughly the same size as the UFP and higher end, it’s three times the size. You could add in the Chapters of course and the Space Marines, but you aren’t going to get anything higher than maybe 4 to 1 odds against the UFP. And that would be a massive dedication of the Imperium’s military force. More than what they’d need to steamroll the Tau, if I’m not mistaken.
[QUOTE]Now think about those tightly packed Federation fleets we saw in the various battles in DS9. A Nova Cannon is a weapon with a blast radius the size of the Moon and capable of inflicting damage in the PETATON range.[/QUOTE]
Where are you getting the evidence that their nova cannons are petaton level weapons? Because if that’s true, then why aren’t they using them as exterminatus weapons? It sure as hell is rather peculiar if they have an explosive radius in the petaton range to the size of a moon and yet aren’t used to devastate entire planets in a matter of a few minutes.
[QUOTE] A single Nova Cannon shell fired into the midst of one of those densely packed Starfleet task forces would annihilate it almost immediately. And bear in mind that ships in 40k are designed to withstand those levels of firepower in return. Not for seconds. Not for minutes. But for days.[/QUOTE]
Since when? I think this is a little of that classic mixing and maxing of canon sources that I see so often with fanboys and their somewhat more obscure sci-fi series. You are no doubt getting the whole timeframe of days from their countertop game, but in the novel series, fleet engagements don’t last days. Not unless we’re talking about a really, really massive battle.
Simply put, if these ships can resist petatons of energy for days…why are the Space Marines a thing? Why is large number of Imperial Guardsmen or Orks an issue for either side? A laser cannon put on long range turrets would instantly vaporize any sort of landing ship and any sort of army attempting to invade any other part of the planet.
Their guns should literally have the yield of Hiroshima and they should be using armor and personal shields that easily absorbs this sort of energy. And yet this is never seen. There is absolutely no indication of this sort of power generation trickling down to where the Imperium could make really good use on such weapons.
It also begs the question as to why things like solar flares, which are a dangerous obstacle in the counter-top game, are also any sort of problem.
[QUOTE]Space battles in the 40k universe often go on non-stop for days, maybe even weeks before one ship is destroyed. So imagine how monstrously resistant the shields on an Imperial ship has to be to be able to resist that level of firepower over the course of several days. So in comparison to that, how much firepower could the Federation possibly muster up in return that could do so much as scratch the paint job on an Imperial Navy ship, much less bring one down?[/QUOTE]
Except in the novels, those battles never take days. They’re your typical sci-fi ship battle that Star Trek made popular.
[QUOTE]Then there’s the issue of speed. Voyager, one of the fastest ships in Starfleet service, can cover approximately 3 light years a day. The slowest ships in Imperial service are capable of covering 1,000-4,000 light years in a day. Think about that. The Federation spans 8,000 light years, so it’d take Starfleet’s fastest ships seven YEARS to get from one end of the Federation to the other, while it’d take the Imperium’s slowest ships two to eight DAYS to get across one end of the Federation to the other. So Imperial ships can literally strike anywhere they want without Starfleet being able to intercept them or do anything to stop them. How long could the Federation possibly survive when they’ve got Imperial starships striking at worlds at will, hitting worlds on one side of the Federation, and then hitting worlds on the other side? The Federation would fall apart within days. Not that it matters, though, because even if a full fleet of ships caught up to an Imperial ship, they wouldn’t be able to stop it.[/QUOTE]
I’ve already dismissed this claim, but it bears repeating; Imperium ships are not that fast. Their average speed would mean that at best it would take them months and at worst it’d take them about the same time as it would the Federation. Nor would there be any assurances that the entire Imperium fleet would arrive together in that time.
[QUOTE]Point is, a handful of Imperial Navy ships could absolutely lay waste to the Federation, nevermind the full power of the Imperium. They’ve got the speed to reach Earth, Andor, Vulcan, and every other important world in the Federation before Starfleet can mass its strength, and the firepower to annihilate the defenses of each world and glassing each one of those planets. And once they’re done that they can move on to the rest of the Federation and pick it off at their leisure. And even if Starfleet does eventually mass, they’ll never be able to catch up to the Imperial ships. Doesn’t matter if they do, though, as the Imperial ships may engage them just to make their victory complete. And if that happens, Starfleet is done for, as their combined firepower won’t be enough to bring down a single Imperial ship, let alone a squadron of them, while they’ll be blasted apart in no time.[/QUOTE]
Again, I have yet to see any sort of evidence of teratons of firepower form the Imperium other tha the occasional odd quote and some flowery nonsense posted by people who don’t know what figurative writing is.
[QUOTE]As for the Borg, while they’re tougher than the Federation, they’re still nowhere near the order of power which the Imperium has. The Imperium never even has to see a Borg drone in order to annihilate them. Although regarding the Space Marines Vs. Borg issue, think back to all those confrontations with the Borg. The Starfleet crewmen invariably only ever got assimilated because the Borg adapted to their phasers, becoming immune to them. That allowed the normally slow moving Borg to get close enough to assimilate them. That, however, wouldn’t be an issue with Space Marines. The Borg have only ever shown an ability to adapt to energy weapons, not physical attacks. That means that bolter fire would tear right through them and, being unable to adapt to that, the Borg would die in droves without ever getting near the Space Marines. Just as they died when fighting Starfleet until they eventually adapted to their phaser fire. So the likelihood of asssimilating any Space Marines, much less in numbers large enough to make a difference, aren’t very good.
[Though as I said, the Imperium has no real reason to send a squad of Space Marines aboard a Borg ship, when they can just blast it apart with their ships guns./QUOTE]
There’s no reason the Borg can’t adapt to kinetic weapons. The energy they absorb from phasers fare exceeds that of any modern kinetic firearm. They simply haven’t done so before because hand to hand combat typically results in the drone hurling some red shirt’s sorry ass halfway across the room with one hand. Yes, Worf and Data have managed to fight drones and do well–but they were two people out of a crew of like, a thousand. And even they can only take on two or three drones before having to retreat.
So that really isn’t a reason to believe that they’re incapable of realizing the difference of two guys non-lethally stabbing a handful of drones and people running around gunning drones down with KE weapons. Also, it took an absurd amount of rounds from a tommy gun to down two drones–as in it was empty afterwards. Granted, that’s not in the same league as bolters, but it’s worth pointing out.
Also, I find it odd that people knock on phasers as hard as they do. Just the DET from the phasers is incredible. According to Major Kira, UFP phaser rifles are a bit weaker than their Cardassian counterparts, which are 4.7 megajoules. So, I guess 4.5 megajoules is fair game. How does this compare to say a bolter?
Well, bolters are .998 calibre. The modern .950 calibre would thus be our initial starting point. This round basically weighs in at 230 grams. It has a muzzle velocity of 670 meters per second. That gives it a KE of 51,623.5 joules or 51.5 kilojoules. Keep in mind that the .95 calibre round is so large that it’s beyond the firing capacity of most humans. Even if you bump up the weight to 30 grams and the muzzle velocity to 850, you’re still only at about 108 kilojoules. A single shot from a high powered phaser is 41x stronger than that of the bolter. Borg shields have been seen to resist up to 10 megajoules from the modified phase pistols in Enterprise.
So in order for them to down the shields of one drone’s shields, they’d need to pour in at least 92 rounds into that drone after the Borg adapt KE shielding. Oh, and their disruptors are capable of similar energy yields as that of the UFP’s weapons…so you can expect to find your space marines overpowered in short order, even if they do somehow manage to kill a ten to one in their favor.
For those of you who want to try and visualize just what I’m talking about, this is a link to the M829 rounds the US Abrams tank uses:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M829_(munition)
Take note of the M829A3. The round put into service in 2003. It has a weight of about 22.3 kilograms. It has a muzzle velocity of 1,555 m/s. That equals out to 26,960,978.75 joules or 26.96 megajoules. The Borg shields in Enterprise took 10 megajoules. We’re talking more than a third of the yield that an Abrams tank throws out with its main gun.
Granted, it should be noted that the pistols were at first successful in penetrating shielding and even had some success after the fact (sort of…). But even so, the blasts didn’t exactly blow the drones apart either.
Also keep in mind that in Generations, Doctor Soran had set up a 50 gigawatt forcefield. 4.184 gigajoules is equal to 1 ton of explosives. In order to break through that force field, you’d need a 11.95 ton bomb. Even the US MOAB would not be able to punch through that shield.
And you know what else? You want to talk about real firepower? This is the Breen CRM 114:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:CRM_114.jpg
It’s a popular weapon manufactured by the Breen that Quark was selling to thugs and private armies during his short time as a blackmarket weapons dealer. It had a yield of 4.6 gigajoules. Remember that bit of 4.184 gigajoules = 1 ton bomb. The Breen have 1 ton missile launchers.
To demonstrate, this is a 1 ton bomb going off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAYVMXYYAp4
This is slightly more powerful, smaller than a bolter, is available to the black market, and is produced by a military that is less powerful than the UFP. Draw your own conclusions.
EDIT on the CRM 114:
Double checking, it stated that the weapon can PENETRATE a 4.6 gigajoule forcefield. That’s slightly different, but not really a problem, since you still need that much energy to blast your way through the shield, but I felt the need to include it.
may i just add that star trek need an eintire fleet to level a planet where as the imperium has a battle barge which and i qoute frpom the space marine codex here, altough in the codex the spelling is much better :P, ‘a battle barge could level a city in just a few shots if it so wished’ and ‘even just the roumered aproach of a battle barge is enough to stop an uprising in its tracks
the federation doesn’t need an entire fleet to level a planet…..I don’t know where you could have gotten that from.
[QUOTE]champora | March 31, 2012 at 6:55 pm | Reply
may i just add that star trek need an eintire fleet to level a planet[/QUOTE]
No they don’t. The Defiant in Broken Link was said to have enough firepower to turn a planet’s surface into a smoldering cinder. The 1701 Enterprise (Constitution class) was stated to have enough firepower to destroy all habitable life on a planet’s surface.
[QUOTE]where as the imperium has a battle barge which and i qoute frpom the space marine codex here, altough in the codex the spelling is much better , ‘a battle barge could level a city in just a few shots if it so wished’ and ‘even just the roumered aproach of a battle barge is enough to stop an uprising in its tracks[/QUOTE]
…And your point is?
This is exactly what I mean. People have a massive misunderstanding of how powerful modern nuclear weapons are. Here is a link:
http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html
Here, you can see the shockwave (the most powerful part of the explosion in an atmosphere environment) of a 100 kiloton nuke in New York City. 2-3 shots would utterly devastate the entire city. Or switch it to Baltimore City. A single 100 kt shot would end that city. Now reduce the yield to 10 kilotons. Now use your imagination and imagine three evenly placed shots, so that the damage covers the most area (think triangle). You would end that city.
In other words, that buys you:
Low End: 10 kt
High End: 100 kt
Even if the Imperium has ‘inferior weapons tech’, think strategically. They have military commanders who have been at war for thousands of years. I’m sure they can come up with some brilliant strategy to destroy the UFP
ok i stand corrected
That’s not to say that their ships are limited to 10-100 kt weapons, just that nuclear weapons are very, very effective. It’s doubtful that their standard armament exceeds the double digit megaton range.
The problem with 40k is that its numbers are…all over the place. In one area you have gigawatts and in other places they mention gigaton MIRV fusion warheads (which is just retarded). This is common for sci-fi. ST even has one incident where they talk half an ounce of antimatter and blow off half the atmosphere of a planet. So, 40k isn’t the only one that makes stupid yield mistakes.
i’ll give you that but on the same hand star trek ships are for the most part on a smaller scale too. all the ships in this pic are done to the same scale
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=federation+compared+to+battle+barge&um=1&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=519&tbm=isch&tbnid=v2YzR8fs2VqTlM:&imgrefurl=http://foxhugh.wordpress.com/fiction/star-trek-vs-warhammer-40k/&docid=Dof9xJHfDrhtJM&itg=1&imgurl=http://foxhugh.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/the-imperium-vs-warhammer-40k.jpg&w=1093&h=747&ei=cvh2T8rgIcLH0QWbhKDJDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=525&vpy=4&dur=349&hovh=186&hovw=272&tx=144&ty=99&sig=103788364764840779363&page=4&tbnh=144&tbnw=213&start=32&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:32
the scale of this is a little off actually. if an Imperium Battleship is about 8 long, and the Enterprise E is over a mile in length, than a sovereign-class ship would be a little under 1/4 the size of the battleship.
Which means absolutely nothing unless they both use the same technology. Which they don’t. It’s also moot, because even at ten to one odds, the UFP is still too large to swallow for the Imperium to invade them. Again, keep in mind that the Tau, a power much, much smaller than the UFP, have not been steamrolled.
Keep in mind that the Imperium are busy fighting dozens of other alien super powers
And please, nothing in the ST universe is too large for the Imperium to invade. If the Imperium had to fight the UFP one-on-one, the Imperium has the ability to muster billions of Imperial Guardsmen and millions of Imperial Navy ships. Not to mention the Adeptus Astartes, the Inquisition, the Mechanicus and so many other branches. Also, don’t forget the Star Fortresses, they could just come out from the warp and ram right through entire Federation Fleets and destroy them without firing a single weapon.
yes but lets also keep in mind that if this were to happen more than likly the UFP and the Imperium would become allies, people seem to forget, that it is only aliens and heretics that the imperium would target. and besides that ok so the imperuium would not concure the fedration but the tryinds, lets put it this way the nids are massive swarm orginusms, very simular to the borg, the only diffrence is they know ruffly the size of the borg. where as the nids have massive hive fleets, each fleet able to kill an entire system in a matter of days. and they have no idea how many hive fleets there acctally are. there is defifnatly 12 confirmed fleets, but as the imperiums efforts is more about protecting its boarders rather than conquiring new ones they have not gone into nids space to find out how many hive fleets there acctally are. and as for you point about the TAu, the imperrium is more constranted on protecting its boarders, as i have already said, and only engagee the tau when tau attack imperial held planets. as well as holding back them, they are holding back all their other enimes as well. so they have no time to invade tau space
[QUOTE]champora | March 31, 2012 at 10:35 pm | Reply
yes but lets also keep in mind that if this were to happen more than likly the UFP and the Imperium would become allies,[/QUOTE]
Not likely. The UFP would be disgusted with the Imperium’s practices and the Imperium would think of them as heretics. It would take a century for them to put aside their mutual differences.
[QUOTE] people seem to forget, that it is only aliens and heretics that the imperium would target. and besides that ok so the imperuium would not concure the fedration but the tryinds, lets put it this way the nids are massive swarm orginusms, very simular to the borg, the only diffrence is they know ruffly the size of the borg. where as the nids have massive hive fleets, each fleet able to kill an entire system in a matter of days. and they have no idea how many hive fleets there acctally are. there is defifnatly 12 confirmed fleets, but as the imperiums efforts is more about protecting its boarders rather than conquiring new ones they have not gone into nids space to find out how many hive fleets there acctally are. and as for you point about the TAu, the imperrium is more constranted on protecting its boarders, as i have already said, and only engagee the tau when tau attack imperial held planets. as well as holding back them, they are holding back all their other enimes as well. so they have no time to invade tau space[/QUOTE]
If the Imperium had the chance, they’d crush the Tau. The Tau are expansionist and want to aim higher than just owning their planet and a few colonies. If the Imperium had the resources, they’d crush them. Just like they would the Federation, given the chance.
At present, because the Tau can be reasoned with, they’re not devoting the resources needed to destroy them or at least break them. The Imperium is going to work with the UFP because they have little choice to. Not because they’re going to be diplomatic about it. You can expect a few short wars between the two as the Imperium takes their measure.
ok i’m not gona be able to win this haha i see that 😛 but lets just say i am a devote fan of both and in my opion 40k would win. espcailly on the ground as no race in the star trek universe has anything close to titans of 40k
[QUOTE]champora | March 31, 2012 at 11:37 pm | Reply
ok i’m not gona be able to win this haha i see that but lets just say i am a devote fan of both and in my opion 40k would win. espcailly on the ground as no race in the star trek universe has anything close to titans of 40k[/QUOTE]
Mechs of that size are always a terrible idea. 40k Titans are especially terrible. At least a Gundam mech or something of that sort has some degree of maneuverability. Titans themselves don’t have all that much firepower, especially for their immense size. They wield more or less ton level weaponry, probably no more than twenty. And that with guns the length of several buses on a massive walking mechanisim.
Starfleet could raise a 50 gigawatt force field around their camp and nothing short of an army of titans bombing the hell out of it is going to get through. Meanwhile, they can fire back safely from their bunker with small phaser banks, each with the yield slightly greater than a one ton bomb (or higher if they get a larger phaser bank). And they could easily field small bombs that reach into the hundred ton bomb range.
And those weapons are much smaller than the titian, cheaper than the titian, easier to transport than the Titan, and are easier to replace than the titian. So I really don’t see how a Titan is going to change the course of a battle for the Imperium. Even without an orbital ship, the UFP should be able to strike at those Titans without problem. And even if they can’t, you can bet that most of their transporters can reach that range and beam bombs all over it–or just a really big one.
Great…another fan who thinks ST will steamroll 40k, cheese through the entire universe in less than a week.
Just…great. Plus, vague statements with no real evidence…you are a real gem.
waoh woah woah!!! who is that aimed at, sorry i’m a bit mentilly retarded, littrally, me or mith?
cos if its aimed at me, one i belive 40k would win. two i have provided evidence for everything i’ve said ever since i joined this debat
[QUOTE]champora | April 1, 2012 at 2:36 am | Reply
waoh woah woah!!! who is that aimed at, sorry i’m a bit mentilly retarded, littrally, me or mith?[/QUOTE]
Me.
[QUOTE]TheSGC | April 1, 2012 at 2:35 am | Reply
Great…another fan who thinks ST will steamroll 40k, cheese through the entire universe in less than a week.[/QUOTE]
Steamroll them how? On the ground? Oh yes, the UFP will steamroll them. If you wish, please address the points that I’ve made. In space? That’s a bit of a different story. But I doubt we’re going to be seeing a massive firepower advantage for the Imperium. Again, feel free to address my points.
[QUOTE]Just…great. Plus, vague statements with no real evidence…you are a real gem.[/QUOTE
Oh, well then please feel free to destroy my arguments. I assume that’s what you intend to do of course, rather than posting a small, short paragraph telling everyone how vague and unproven my arguments are without any evidence or reasoning behind it.
I have to admit I am a bit confused maybe names would be a good idea. There is a reason business memos have a “to” section:)
Okay, well, here goes:
[quote] 40k Titans are especially terrible. At least a Gundam mech or something of that sort has some degree of maneuverability. Titans themselves don’t have all that much firepower, especially for their immense size[/quote]
Well, yes, they do. Read Titanicus/False Gods. The bigger the Titan, the more firepower it generally has (exception being the Plasma Blastgun, which can go all round to all the classes. It’s described as a larger, more deadlier version of the human-size plasma gun). Titan Plasma Weaponry is described as such:
Miniature suns exploded in the desert as the Titan’s plasma weaponry blasted craters hundreds of metres in diameter, obliterating hundreds of Astartes at a stroke and turning the sand to shimmering dark glass.
– Fulgrim, pg. 462 (courtesy, reference from BL and taken from SpaceBattles.com). I can’t calculate numbers – this is too vague for that. You can, though, ballpark the Titan’s plasma weaponry. Coupling this with the stuff from the Lexicanum, which states that the weapon can fire in short bursts to deal with infantry, the firepower required to blow ‘craters hundreds of meters in diameter’ in a relatively short amount of time is a lot. So, Titans are *not* armed with relative peashooters, which seems like that was your point. Additionally, in False Gods, a Titan is shown to withstand an orbital bombardment and virus bombing of a planet, by shutting its exterior hatches and hoping for the best. IDR if it had shields or not – I’ll have to read it and check. Regardless – Titan shields are layered, and so if one gets knocked out, another can be shifted into place. They can also regenerate during combat (Titanicus, IIRC). Titans can also maneuver relatively well for machines their size – they don’t just walk into straight lines (Titanicus).
Let’s address shield technology. In Salvation’s Reach, ship weaponry described as being able to devastate an entire Hive City (tons upon tons upon tons of steel, Adamantium, and various other metals) in a few salvoes simply crash against a battleships’ shields like firecrackers. Take from that what you will – a single ship should be able to devastate enough of a planet’s atmosphere to make it uninhabitable (this is an inference), taking into account radiation from laser weaponry. That’s while not looking at one-shot planet killers, like Cyclonic Torpedoes. Those torpedoes in question can ‘burrow to a planet’s core’ using a specialized melta charge (Lexicanum), and then blow up, shattering the world. The Virus Bombing of Istvaan III, during the onset of the Horus Heresy, took several minutes to turn everything on the planet of biological origin into a nice sludge. 40k’s “WMD”s are extremely, extremely powerful – far more powerful than any nuclear weapon ever conceived…back to shields. 40k void shields are described as simply transporting any physical or energy based projectile into the Warp (there is some ambiguity in the lore as far as this goes, though).This is probably why it interferes with teleportation – in 40k, that tech is based off short jumps through the Warp, and any field messing with that relationship (like a void shield) will also turn teleportation into a screwy mess.
Regarding teleporation. The exact ranges are a bit muddy – you can obviously teleport from a planet to a ship in high orbit, but if you’re to take DoW II: Retribution at face value, you can also use a teleportarium to travel between planets in a sector. This may just be a plot device – given the diverse nature of technology in 40k, however, I think it’s more than likely that a sector in the Imperium uses this.
More later – I have other work to finish…
@fox
While true, it is sort of obvious just who he was addressing; me. I’m relatively new to the discussion, I’ve made rather long posts, and I’m an advocate for Trek in this discussion, though I fear he’s put words into my mouth to some extent.
Great!
TheSGC | April 2, 2012 at 2:17 am | Reply
Okay, well, here goes:
Well, yes, they do. Read Titanicus/False Gods. The bigger the Titan, the more firepower it generally has (exception being the Plasma Blastgun, which can go all round to all the classes. It’s described as a larger, more deadlier version of the human-size plasma gun).[/QUOTE]
You sort of missed a key phrase there; poor for its size.
[QUOTE] Titan Plasma Weaponry is described as such:
Miniature suns exploded in the desert as the Titan’s plasma weaponry blasted craters hundreds of metres in diameter, obliterating hundreds of Astartes at a stroke and turning the sand to shimmering dark glass.[/QUOTE]
That’s almost impossible to calculate due to ROF and would be silly to believe that a titan could blow hundreds of meters worth of craters with each round, so that qute is sort of useless.
[QUOTE]- Fulgrim, pg. 462 (courtesy, reference from BL and taken from SpaceBattles.com).[/QUOTE]
Small wonder that. In any case, perhaps this might be a better indication as to their firepower strength:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXiYGiqG1FQ
Go to 2:10
You’ll note that thing he puts into the Titans gun before it fires? It’s a warp based power source that enhanced its firepower. As you can see from the resulting explosion, we’re not really looking at massive firepower in that regard.
Do you have any other examples?
[QUOTE] I can’t calculate numbers – this is too vague for that. You can, though, ballpark the Titan’s plasma weaponry. Coupling this with the stuff from the Lexicanum, which states that the weapon can fire in short bursts to deal with infantry, the firepower required to blow ‘craters hundreds of meters in diameter’ in a relatively short amount of time is a lot. So, Titans are *not* armed with relative peashooters, which seems like that was your point.[/QUOTE]
Um, no you can’t really. Not unless you know how many plasma rounds were fired. And the entire idea of 200+ meter holes is just silly. Especially in light of the Space Marine Titan display. Granted, it’s not THE largest titan, but it’s one of them.
[QUOTE] Additionally, in False Gods, a Titan is shown to withstand an orbital bombardment and virus bombing of a planet, by shutting its exterior hatches and hoping for the best. IDR if it had shields or not – I’ll have to read it and check. Regardless – Titan shields are layered, and so if one gets knocked out, another can be shifted into place. They can also regenerate during combat (Titanicus, IIRC). Titans can also maneuver relatively well for machines their size – they don’t just walk into straight lines (Titanicus).[/QUOTE]
Virus bombing shouldn’t harm the titan at all and bombardment could mean anything. As long as the Titan can survive a few shots from weapons of its own calibre, then so long as there isn’t a direct or near direct hit, the titan will be fine against most nearby nuclear strikes.
[QUOTE]Let’s address shield technology. In Salvation’s Reach, ship weaponry described as being able to devastate an entire Hive City (tons upon tons upon tons of steel, Adamantium, and various other metals) in a few salvoes simply crash against a battleships’ shields like firecrackers. Take from that what you will[/QUOTE]
I take very little away from it. Again, so long as your ships can toss out tons or kilotons of energy multiple times, destroying a city is not hard. A ship armed with nothing more than 5x 10 kiloton lasers could devastate New York in one or two volleys. You could do the same to Baltimore City with three shots. A hive city, despite its immense size, is not going to be so difficult to collapse, especially when most buildings aren’t designed to be nuclear proof.
[QUOTE]– a single ship should be able to devastate enough of a planet’s atmosphere to make it uninhabitable (this is an inference), taking into account radiation from laser weaponry. [/QUOTE]
Also not hard. The US is currently looking at potential widespread danger from a local nuclear exchange in the middle-east due to the holes it could punch in the ozone.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04/regional-nuclea/
Now let’s look at what sort of minor destruction that such a conflict would have over the rest of the world directly (next to nothing) and look at what a ship bombing a planet could do. You don’t need gigatons or even megatons of firepower per shot. You need kilotons and a lot of shells.
[QUOTE]That’s while not looking at one-shot planet killers, like Cyclonic Torpedoes. Those torpedoes in question can ‘burrow to a planet’s core’ using a specialized melta charge (Lexicanum), and then blow up, shattering the world. [/QUOTE]
Superweapons.
[QUOTE]The Virus Bombing of Istvaan III, during the onset of the Horus Heresy, took several minutes to turn everything on the planet of biological origin into a nice sludge.[/QUOTE]
A Klingon cruiser destroyed the entire biosphere of a planet in seconds in The Chase to the point that the Enterprise D wouldn’t be able to get one sampling of DNA.
[QUOTE]40k’s “WMD”s are extremely, extremely powerful – far more powerful than any nuclear weapon ever conceived…back to shields.[/QUOTE]
And so are they in Trek.
[QUOTE]40k void shields are described as simply transporting any physical or energy based projectile into the Warp (there is some ambiguity in the lore as far as this goes, though).This is probably why it interferes with teleportation – in 40k, that tech is based off short jumps through the Warp, and any field messing with that relationship (like a void shield) will also turn teleportation into a screwy mess.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps.
[QUOTE]Regarding teleporation. The exact ranges are a bit muddy – you can obviously teleport from a planet to a ship in high orbit, but if you’re to take DoW II: Retribution at face value, you can also use a teleportarium to travel between planets in a sector. This may just be a plot device – given the diverse nature of technology in 40k, however, I think it’s more than likely that a sector in the Imperium uses this.
More later – I have other work to finish…[/QUOTE]
It’s probably just some sort of hi-jacked webgate. Otherwise, you fly right in the face of the very setting.
You’re missing the point. Its about mindset and numbers. By the time the ‘peace-loving’ Federation has the heart to go to full-scale war, the ruthless Imperium would have finished them off. Besides, even if the Federation has more powerful weapons than the Imperium, I doubt they have enough to wipe out the millions of planets the Imperium has. Numbers will win this confrontation. Its like a 10-men squad armed with modern day tech against an army of 10 000 tribesmen. They may cut down the tribesmen in droves, but sooner or later, they’ll run out of ammunition, and there will still be more tribesmen heading towards them.
Regarding the ‘titan example’: no, that is not a ‘representative example’ of what Titans can do. The Warp-based energy source was specifically put there to break through the Warp-gate. Normally, the idea is that you can’t truly harm or break down a warp gate unless you pray hard enough, or you play with the Warp itself. That’s what the energy source was for – to specifically target the Warp Gate. Titus didn’t need to blow apart the entire city, he just needed the Titan to take out the main Warp Gate. You’re missing the context here completely (it would be like me pulling a random example of a phaser doing no damage at all to a ship). Also: if you have a counter example to a Titan being ‘poor for its size’, please provide one. Until then, 40k fluff proves you wrong.
Regarding Salvation’s Reach: I have the novel – not with me – but the exact quote isn’t just ‘target the support structures, yay’, it’s more along the lines of ‘firepower designed to render an entire hive city into a molten slag of metal’. Accounting for the fact that construction materials in 40k are more sturdy and advanced by today’s standards (Adamantium…Plasteel…etc), your disregard of that fact seems pretty funny to me.
Regarding the ‘hundreds of meters quote’: ‘hahahaha no’ moment for me. You *can’t* disregard that. There are a few things you have to understand about 40k fluff – it is a constantly evolving, constantly changing, constantly retconned beast. Fulgrim is a recent piece of fluff from the Horus Heresy novel series. Taken in context of what Titans have been described to do (again, I highly encourage you to read Titanicus and the Horus Heresy novels), it’s perfectly feasible.
Regarding Teleportation: not sure what you mean at all – that doesn’t fly in teh ‘face of the very setting’ at all; technology in 40k is very diverse, most BL authors have stated/touched upon that fact many times. A lasgun might be a pew pew flashlight in one sector, but in the other advances have been made and it’s a powerful gun to be reckoned with. The problem with 40k is that there are no standards to tech in the fluff – a large portion of it is just added on the way as the fluff makers see fit.
…more to come later…
Mith is using the Space Marine game’s Titan to measure their power, which is completely off in regards to the lore, he’s wrong by default.
i might add here, the titan invictus fired at a freeking orbital spire. a constract desinged to withstand an orbital bombardment, so the forces below may get re-enforced, so hello!!! it must have been a pritty powerful shot to blast the spire in half. and may i just point out the sheer size of the imperium makes the fedration look like nothing more than a small town, i have evidence if you wish me to provide it
once again i am really sorry for the bad spelling i have dyslexia which makes spelling things right damn near impossible for me
but lets not forget, Federation isnt a conquering race so most tools are made for exploration BUT,..with that level of technology, a few sensor scans and replicators and viola easy “anti-imperium ships/ titans, power armors, etc” can be created. while on the other hand development is slow for the adeptus mechanicus and rely solely on traditional stuff as regarding any other methods as heressey(xenos tech). Even Klingons on 1 TNG episode( season 6 – The Chase ) destroyed all life on 1 planet just by incenerating its atmosphere with plasma based weaponry, so in terms of firepower the gap isnt that far off and can easily be modified/upgraded to fit the current situation. If ever they made warp based transphasic torpedoes ( can easily bypass shields ) – battles would really be fast since they can use long range scans to probe far off systems/galaxies and fire
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transphasic_torpedo
“with that level of technology, a few sensor scans and replicators and viola easy “anti-imperium ships/ titans, power armors, etc” can be created”
They can create titans, but they do not have anyone capable of operating them. They can create power armors, but an unmodified human being cannot wear them. Besides, a normal human in power armor going up against an Astartes in power armor? That armor isn’t going to make much of a difference.
“development is slow for the adeptus mechanicus and rely solely on traditional stuff as regarding any other methods as heressey(xenos tech)”
They might not treat Federation tech as Xenos tech. Imagine all the Mechanicum’s forge worlds focused on utilising and upgrading Federation tech, I’m pretty sure they can come up with something better
“in terms of firepower the gap isnt that far off”
Sure, but sooner or later they’ll run out, unless they have a million of those to destroy the Imperium.
TheSGC | April 3, 2012 at 2:23 am | Reply
Regarding the ‘titan example’: no, that is not a ‘representative example’ of what Titans can do. The Warp-based energy source was specifically put there to break through the Warp-gate.[/QUOTE]
Just where did it say that exactly? Because I don’t recall that being uttered once. Not to mention that the entire titan overloaded after firing that weapon, suggesting it was more power than it could handle. It had to shut down.
[QUOTE]Normally, the idea is that you can’t truly harm or break down a warp gate unless you pray hard enough, or you play with the Warp itself.[/QUOTE]
Your evidence? Nor does your argument even make any sense. They didn’t fire at the portal, if you recall. They fired at the thing generating the portal.
[QUOTE]Also: if you have a counter example to a Titan being ‘poor for its size’, please provide one. Until then, 40k fluff proves you wrong.[/QUOTE]
So just what is your argument in regards to the Invictus? That the power source actually made the weapon less powerful? If what you say is true and that the power source just added warpishness to it, why did we still not see a massive explosion?
[QUOTE]Regarding Salvation’s Reach: I have the novel – not with me – but the exact quote isn’t just ‘target the support structures, yay’, it’s more along the lines of ‘firepower designed to render an entire hive city into a molten slag of metal’. [/QUOTE]
Get me the quote.
[QUOTE]Accounting for the fact that construction materials in 40k are more sturdy and advanced by today’s standards (Adamantium…Plasteel…etc), your disregard of that fact seems pretty funny to me.
[/QUOTE]
More sturdy and advanced how? There doesn’t seem to be any evidence that their bog standard buildings are anymore resistant than modern ones.
[QUOTE]Regarding the ‘hundreds of meters quote’: ‘hahahaha no’ moment for me. You *can’t* disregard that. [/QUOTE]
Yes, yes I can. Why? Because it doesn’t give any sort of indication of how many shots went into creating those craters. Without an understanding of ROF, it really doesn’t tell me much at all. Also, get me some more context for that quote. If you want to claim 200+ meter wide craters, then I need to see the context of before and after the quote.
[QUOTE]There are a few things you have to understand about 40k fluff – it is a constantly evolving, constantly changing, constantly retconned beast. Fulgrim is a recent piece of fluff from the Horus Heresy novel series. Taken in context of what Titans have been described to do (again, I highly encourage you to read Titanicus and the Horus Heresy novels), it’s perfectly feasible.[/QUOTE]
Jesus, can you respond to me with something that doesn’t constitute a non-answer?
[QUOTE]Regarding Teleportation: not sure what you mean at all – that doesn’t fly in teh ‘face of the very setting’ at all; technology in 40k is very diverse, most BL authors have stated/touched upon that fact many times. A lasgun might be a pew pew flashlight in one sector, but in the other advances have been made and it’s a powerful gun to be reckoned with. The problem with 40k is that there are no standards to tech in the fluff – a large portion of it is just added on the way as the fluff makers see fit.
…more to come later…[/QUOTE]
Yeah, no. These are simple consistency issues between writers. It’s very common and 40k is by far not the first series to suffer from it. To pretend that these discrepancies is due to firepower ratings is just silly. The mistakes are there because they’re mistakes. Simple as that.
[QUOTE]champora | April 3, 2012 at 4:17 am | Reply
i might add here, the titan invictus fired at a freeking orbital spire. a constract desinged to withstand an orbital bombardment, so the forces below may get re-enforced, so hello!!! it must have been a pritty powerful shot to blast the spire in half.[/QUOTE]
Except that’s not how physics work. If you fire a 50 kt blast at something, even heavily reinforced, you will know it. That blast was not immense by any stretch of the imagination. Not by the size of the thing firing it.
a[QUOTE]nd may i just point out the sheer size of the imperium makes the fedration look like nothing more than a small town, i have evidence if you wish me to provide it[/QUOTE]
Go ahead if you wish.
ok then firstly mith, that hole chapter of space marine involving th titan is about closing the warp gate, so you can’t say they didn’t mention not firing at the warp gate. In addtion the warp energys pullsing through the spire would have made it invunrable to conventional weaponry, a well established part of 40k fuluf, so the WARP power cannon was needed. I put enphasins on the warp part of that sentance to address your over load point, it was normally a las cannon so it was not designed to fire very un-predicatble energies, so overload is mild compared to what could have happened.
i qoute from the latest white dawf ‘the imperium of man spans the galaxy from end to end, a grand sprawl of a million worlds.” i would qoute more stuff but ever single qoute i could find was practically the same. where as in star trek, yes the fedration has many allies but the worlds controlled by the fedration are in faact minimal
you are thinking too hard, warhammer universe is obviously older, bigger and more advanced than the star trek universe. and you are seriously underestimating the chaos gods, the omnipitant “god like” q wouldn’t stand a chance against an actual god.
I agree with all your comments except the one about Q.
Certainly the Imperium is much, much, much older than the Federation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Star_Trek
Most of the series happen in the 24th and 25th century. So not even a thousand years in the future. 40k happens 38 thousand years in the future? We just passed the year 2000 so substract 2,000 from 40 and you get 38? Is that right. Maybe I would use the word bigger rather than advanced. The Imperium is bigger much bigger than the Federation. Advanced could mean socially advanced and the Federation I would argue is more socially advanced than the Imperium. The Imperium has a middle ages might is right mind set. The Federation has even trascended materialism:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Money
Now that is an act I would like to see! I detest consumerism and how it is destroying the planet to create largely worthless goods and services and would love to see some sort of substitute but not sure that is possible. Well at least the Klingons and Space Marines have a good ole fashioned warriors code unlike the sniveling Ferengi.
We don’t know how old the Q but for all we know the Q showed up right after solar systems and planets formed after the big bang or about 8 billions years old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang
Not sure how old the chaos gods are.
My other big “versus” line is DC versus Marvel and will be comparing circa big bang events in both universes within the year. DC and Marvel both are in agreement that if you have a civilization that is billions of years old then you are probably a super race like the Guardians of the Universe (DC) or really, really powerful like the Elders of the Universe, Galactus, Galactus is pre Big Bang, and the Watchers (Marvel). Really old means really powerful.
I just got down comparing big monsters of the DC and Marvel universes:
http://foxhugh.wordpress.com/2012/03/19/dc-vs-marvel-big-monsters/
You sir put Matt Ward to shame.
I really admire people like Matt Ward who can create whole universes and then go the next step and make a game. The thing is that a guy like Matt Ward is also creating a lot of the gaming conventions we now take for granted. I did create a universe of sorts in my scifi novel that is free at:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/hugh-b-fox-iii/half-square/ebook/product-4083115.html;jsessionid=FCDBA8A1E701D75FAA77B16DEF359B82
I have some D&D RPG and mini friends that said it would make a good game universe and anyone who wants to do that has my permission. And I agree with you, Champora really knows is 40K Warhammer!
to answer you question the chaos gods are sligtly younger than the universe, they were created by negitive emtions of living things so you can not trully kill them, to kill them you would have to kill the sourse of the negitve emtions which would mean wiping out aall life in the universe. abd as a testment to how powerful they are, in the Malus darkblade serioes htye are discribed as four beings playing a game of chease with the beings of the universe as their peices, this is warhammer here but the chaos gods are exactly the same ones in 40k and if we are to assume that they are in the same universe, just at diffrent stages of its development, then by the fact they would be many million years older, and the races feeding them negitve emtions then by the time 40k is set they would be far more powerful.
even if you don’t count them as the same time line, the chaos gods are created and empowered by negitive emtions iin the 40k universe as well so the arival of such races as the kilingons, borg and romulans would increese the power ten fold, and the more powerful they become the more followers they would ‘recirut’ to worshiping them thus making them more powerful once again, does everyone see where i’m going with this?
if not I’ll explain, choas gods are already feeding from the negitve emtions of the massive 40k war, but the sheir ammount of blood sheed and the speed at which the existing races copulate, in the pescitive ways, inssures the chaos gods power doesn’t grow. but then the star trek universe people arrive, more races. each cattering, thus empomring each god more than the 40k alone.
Humans: well they would just empower all the dark gods
Kelingons: hello? they basicly worship war so the blood god would quite happily drain their negtive emtions and make himself stronger, maybe a few klinongs would worship him but wwith the code of honour i doubt it
Freingi: greed, Slanessh loves greed and would thrive from the freigni
Romalis: infamous for being decitful Tzeeench would love them
I know their are a hell of alot more races than that but i really can’t be asked to go through everyone so i just listed the fre that came to my head stright away. but back to my point: with the arival of these races the already powerful chaos gods would become even more powerful, even the Q would go to feeding their need for negtive emtions because of the Q’s arogance (is that how you spell that word?)
there my rant is over now i wait for come backs
I agree that the chaos gods would have a buffet of negative emotions with some of the Star Trek races like the Klingons and Ferengi.
yeah they may thrive on emotions and such but they cant siphon off power from the Star Trek universe coz for 1.) no one knows them or believes in them on the other side, 2.) The races on the star trek universe leans towards logic and science that they are likely less to believe supernatural fluff. and 3.) The beliefs/emotions of different races and cultures on the Star Trek Universe would also likely manifest their own god ( ie Fek-lhr of the Klingon Empire and their god of dishonored ones,…. offcourse if i was Fek-lhr, i wouldn’t just give out my followers that easy). So for me i guess the warp wont spill out the rift coz there are forces preventing it.
“but they cant siphon off power from the Star Trek universe coz for 1.) no one knows them or believes in them on the other side”
But 40k do believe in them. Daemons will just use 40k psykers to enter the physical realm. Then when the Star Trek people see them, I’m sure they’ll start believing
I hate to say it but I think everyone has forgoten the Kroot
[quote]champora | April 3, 2012 at 8:16 pm | Reply
ok then firstly mith, that hole chapter of space marine involving th titan is about closing the warp gate, so you can’t say they didn’t mention not firing at the warp gate.[/quote]
I didn’t say otherwise. I’m saying they were firing at the spire, which was generating the portal. They didn’t fire at the portal itself, so there’s no reason to assume that they need magic warp energy to stop it.
[quote]In addtion the warp energys pullsing through the spire would have made it invunrable to conventional weaponry, a well established part of 40k fuluf,[/quote]
You say this, but I see no evidence suggesting this to be the case. There is no indication that the spire was immune to conventional damage. Your treating it as if it’s 3.5 D&D damage reduction. I don’t think that is the case.
[quote]so the WARP power cannon was needed. I put enphasins on the warp part of that sentance to address your over load point, it was normally a las cannon so it was not designed to fire very un-predicatble energies, so overload is mild compared to what could have happened.[/quote]
But then this still brings us back around. Even if we assume that the warp energies didn’t make the weapon stronger, that firepower was still not exactly in the kiloton range. It was in the lower ton range.
Also, that’s not how science works, in regards to the unpredictable warp energies. It’s pretty dirt easy to make surge protectors in your stuff. Small surges from an unpredictable power source should not cause the cannon to overload–let alone the entire titan itself.
[quote]i qoute from the latest white dawf ‘the imperium of man spans the galaxy from end to end, a grand sprawl of a million worlds.” i would qoute more stuff but ever single qoute i could find was practically the same. where as in star trek, yes the fedration has many allies but the worlds controlled by the fedration are in faact minimal[/quote]
I’m well aware of the Imperium’s million world count. I think I might have even mentioned it here before. As for the UFP, they had at least a thousand colonies by the time of the 23rd century, and that may have only been referring to the human worlds.
[quote]Anonymous | April 5, 2012 at 12:32 pm | Reply
you are thinking too hard, warhammer universe is obviously older, bigger and more advanced than the star trek universe. and you are seriously underestimating the chaos gods, the omnipitant “god like” q wouldn’t stand a chance against an actual god.[quote]
It’s really a head scratcher when someone says something, but doesn’t provide any evidence to back themselves up. First off, the 40k universe may be older than the Trek universe, but not by much. To humans, the 41st century and the 24th century are indeed very far apart, but not to galaxies and certainly not to entire universes. Second, no. The ancient empires that belong to Star Trek are far more advanced than any of the 40k ones. You have empires that moved planets around stars, you have species that could create gates that span tens of thousands of light years–some of which still worked fine even after centuries of no upkeep (and a power source to run it, apparently). And then you have species who create those like the Guardian (City on the Edge of Forever), who is a sentient machine capable of generating a time portal.
And in reference to the Chaos Gods and Q…Q is much more powerful and influential than the Chaos Gods are. The Q are capable of rewriting time, destroying and creating worlds, and rewriting the laws of physics. And they can do it without the need of possession or making huge chaos gates or portals to enter the mortal world. In addition, a war between the Q in their home dimension spilled through subspace, which in turn caused stars to go supernova in the Trek Prime universe. And that was considered collateral damage. Stars going supernova were effectively flying shrapnel for them.
And consider for example, that the Q are unable to kill themselves on their own. Quinn used the Big Bang as a hiding place and before that he was unable to find a way to kill himself. That would seem to suggest to me that these weapons were pretty nasty indeed. Even a direct hit from one of them didn’t kill Q himself–it simply wounded him. And its side effect was star busting.
Meanwhile, a Grey Knight can enter the Warp, hunt down a Daemon Prince, tear out his heart, sign it, and go on his merry way.
“To humans, the 41st century and the 24th century are indeed very far apart”
My friend, it is the 41st millenium, not the 41st century
[quote]champora | April 6, 2012 at 4:48 am | Reply
to answer you question the chaos gods are sligtly younger than the universe, they were created by negitive emtions of living things so you can not trully kill them, to kill them you would have to kill the sourse of the negitve emtions which would mean wiping out aall life in the universe.[/quote]
Wait, that can’t entirely be true. I’m pretty sure the warp was at one time relatively calm. It’s the current turmoil state and the damage that the eldar did that created the warp that we know today.
[quote]abd as a testment to how powerful they are, in the Malus darkblade serioes htye are discribed as four beings playing a game of chease with the beings of the universe as their peices, this is warhammer here but the chaos gods are exactly the same ones in 40k and if we are to assume that they are in the same universe, just at diffrent stages of its development, then by the fact they would be many million years older, and the races feeding them negitve emtions then by the time 40k is set they would be far more powerful.[quote]
I find this unlikely. In Warhammer, all the species occupy the same planet. In 40k, they’re tens of thousands of light years apart. Even the orks don’t operate on the same mode of biology. So no, they’re not the same.
[quote]even if you don’t count them as the same time line, the chaos gods are created and empowered by negitive emtions iin the 40k universe as well so the arival of such races as the kilingons, borg and romulans would increese the power ten fold, and the more powerful they become the more followers they would ‘recirut’ to worshiping them thus making them more powerful once again, does everyone see where i’m going with this?[quote]
Okay, gonna stop you right there.
First, the Klingons are not a telepathic species. There are no telepaths in their race. At all. There are occasionally human telepaths, but they’re rare and their abilities typically ranging from being barely empathic to being able to communicate with other telepaths with training. The strongest non-enhanced human we’ve seen did not have much in the way of strong telepathic power. In fact, most Trek species are not telepathic. And we see what that means for the Tau; little to no chaos encounters.
There are about a dozen of known naturally telepathic races, such as the Vulcans, Romulans, Remans, Vorta, Changelings, Betazoids, and a few others, but even most Romulans have little to no shown telepathic capabilities, so they’re really no better than humans, only one Reman out of an entire crew had such abilities and he was seen as sort of a priestly/fatherly figure to those Remans and their leader. Vulcans and Betazoids can range from moderately powerful to very powerful, but are also very mentally strong. Vorta and Changelings are a little harder, but given that no one can even detect a Changeling even with a Betazoid, I’m guessing they’re very tough as well. Vorta have shown only telekinesis, so we know very little about their mental defenses.
Also, while the races in Trek can be paranoid, they’re actually far, far better off than any one species within 40k, so there’s very little for the warp to feed off of. It’s also worth mentioning that there’s probably no place where the warp touches the Trek universe at all. And even if it does, there clearly then can’t be enough chaos to be a danger to the UFP.
[quote]if not I’ll explain, choas gods are already feeding from the negitve emtions of the massive 40k war, but the sheir ammount of blood sheed and the speed at which the existing races copulate, in the pescitive ways, inssures the chaos gods power doesn’t grow. but then the star trek universe people arrive, more races. each cattering, thus empomring each god more than the 40k alone.[quote]
Except the UFP isn’t exactly going to just move into the 40k universe without checking out possible dangers–daemon possession would seem like a good reason NOT to colonize their universe.
[quote]Humans: well they would just empower all the dark gods[/quote]
No, they wouldn’t. The vast majority of human telepaths in Star Trek are latent. Like Gabriel of the Blood Angels, except even less than that. Their most powerful telepaths The most powerful human telepath in Star Trek was Miranda Jones, who went to Vulcan to learn how to turn off her telepathic abilities. She was a greater telepath than Spock apparently, as she was able to cure him of his insanity, where as Spock was at times, if I remember, somewhat at risk of mental damage if he connected with an insane person.
[quote]Kelingons: hello? they basicly worship war so the blood god would quite happily drain their negtive emtions and make himself stronger, maybe a few klinongs would worship him but wwith the code of honour i doubt it[/quote]
Klingons are actually anti-theistic. In their stories, the first two Klingons killed their gods. So their response to Khrone would probably involve a warp portal, several dozen ships, and fully loaded torpedo and disruptor banks rather than worship. Also, no telepaths.
[quote]Freingi: greed, Slanessh loves greed and would thrive from the freigni[/quote]
The Ferengi not only don’t have any telepaths, but they’re actually immune to telepathic intrusion due to their biological structure.
[quote]Romalis: infamous for being decitful Tzeeench would love them[/quote]
Given the lack of Romulan telepaths in the series, I would conclude that the Romulans are latent telepaths, much like humans, so any sort of net gain for the chaos gods is going to be small.
[quote]I know their are a hell of alot more races than that but i really can’t be asked to go through everyone so i just listed the fre that came to my head stright away. but back to my point: with the arival of these races the already powerful chaos gods would become even more powerful, even the Q would go to feeding their need for negtive emtions because of the Q’s arogance (is that how you spell that word?)
there my rant is over now i wait for come backs[/quote]
Um, the Q are not humanoids. Nor are they even suggested to be telepathic. They’re not even from the human realm. The Q would in fact, probably be able to keep chaos from fucking things up. And they probably would, considering how serious of a threat they considered Amanda to be. Their response to chaos would probably be curb stomping them and any worshipers that showed up.
Great race by Star Trek race anaylsis!
@miyh
as a come back to your entire comment. the chaos gods do not feed of of teleapths!! they just feed up off emtions, the Chaos gods absorbe emtions from any race weather they arre telepatic or not. The just feed on negitive emtions, if you do not belive me please check out the warhamer 40k fluf or ask any 40k fan. Admitable telepaths are more subsetable to the Chaos gods but anybeing, even an amiba, if they had emtions, would feed the chaos gods. its why they are so powerful. If they were just getting emtions from telepaths then they would not be very powerful as their are very few telepaths in the 40k universe.
ps might i also add that the q wouldn’t stand a chanse against the chaos gods, the Q can be killed the chaos gods can’t. and if you don’t belive me then see star trek voyage episode the Q and the grey
[quote]@miyh
as a come back to your entire comment. the chaos gods do not feed of of teleapths!![/quote]
Correct–but in order to have any true effect on a species, they need telepaths. Or they’re very, very limited. That’s why the Tau don’t suffer chaos incursions as the Imperium does. Because though they offer the emotions, they don’t have the telepaths required to open the door.
[quote] they just feed up off emtions, the Chaos gods absorbe emtions from any race weather they arre telepatic or not. The just feed on negitive emtions, if you do not belive me please check out the warhamer 40k fluf or ask any 40k fan[/quote]
But the warp doesn’t touch the Star Trek universe. Or if it does, it is calm to the point of being a non-threat.
[quote] Admitable telepaths are more subsetable to the Chaos gods but anybeing, even an amiba, if they had emtions, would feed the chaos gods. its why they are so powerful. If they were just getting emtions from telepaths then they would not be very powerful as their are very few telepaths in the 40k universe.[/quote]
Except we know that warp entities can die or at the very least, be broken. See the Eldar gods, who were warp entities just as the Chaos Gods are. They may be powered by emotions, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t be killed because of it. That certainly didn’t stop them from curb stomping the Eldar.
[quote]champora | April 11, 2012 at 5:54 am | Reply
ps might i also add that the q wouldn’t stand a chanse against the chaos gods, the Q can be killed the chaos gods can’t. and if you don’t belive me then see star trek voyage episode the Q and the grey[/quote]
I believe I did reference the Q and the Grey. I also cited Death Wish, where a Q was having trouble dying. In fact, one of Quinn’s and Q’s hiding places included the Big Bang. Yes, THE Big Bang. The Q are also easily capable of robbing the Chaos gods of their powers, as they could literally remove all emotion from the 40k galaxy and the 40k gods would simply cease to be.
Or kill them. Just as they had killed the Eldar gods before them. And then ensure that something less troublesome takes their place. Or even remove all telepathic powers, ensuring that Chaos can’t get a foothold into 40k ever again. Of course the Imperium would collapse…but well, the Imperium itself wouldn’t come close to passing the judgement of the Q anyway, so really a second start is good for everyone.
Ummmm, that is wrong, very wrong. First you should know that the Warp is created by there being sentience in the universe. So the warp should exist in the ST universe . Secondly, before humans began to develop psykers the gods of Chaos were entering their dreams and demanding worship. Yes a Psyker is easier to take control of, but it can be done on anyone given enough time.
On a quick note the main gods can’t be killed or destroyed unless that emotion were to no longer exist. IE unless all warfare and murder was to stop Khorne would always exist. But that wouldn’t stop unless the universe lost all sentient life.
All it takes is a human in the Federation to have a dream. Blurry faces calling him to do their bidding. He listens and starts up a group, which is really a cult, that cult grows in size and it’s front becomes a large organization. This whole time they were unknowingly giving the gods their door:
As with Vraks; before the gods of chaos had really taken an interest in Vraks, the men on Vraks were drawing the symbol of chaos undivided. They were drawing symbols they didn’t know the meaning of and had never seen before in their lives.
the voices tell these ‘cultists’ symbols to draw and words to chant. Several offer themselves to chaos and becomes Daemon hosts that let other warp entities through.
Regarding the Eldar gods and the death of warp entities. They don’t really die per say. IE Asuryan, was consumed by Slaanesh.
That is why you can’t kill them in the normal sense, ‘killing’ them in real space just sends them back to the warp. Again, the only way to really ‘kill’ the gods of chaos would be wiping out all sentient life.
Regarding the Q, they have shown emotion and thus are the perfect targets for manipulation from the gods of Chaos. Personally I think that the Q would rather just pop some popcorn and crack open some root beer and watch the action unfold. They have shown that they would rather sit and watch people kill each other than intervene.
For the Q to do anything against the gods of Chaos, assuming they could remove all emotion (which would only remove the gods, the warp would still exist as long as there was sentient life) they would pop back into existence as soon as emotion existed again. Although I’m not sure how they would remove Nurgle, as he exists due to a combination of sentience and disease and decay. So unless they can remove all sentience, disease and decay, I think he will be fine to stay and continue making putrid diseases to spread across realspace.
All it would take would be one Q to be corrupted and supply its new chaos overseers with an endless supply of weapons capable of killing other Q.
This seems like a topic that could go on forever. It seems like every possible thing people think of can be countered in one way. As this whole part of the thread is only discussing Chaos and the ST universe. Not even taking into account all the other races that would take an interest in destroying the ST universe. Which would ultimately go in 40ks favor as the Q would just sit back and watch the action unfold.
Hunter C. Creed
ok i will give you the fact that the Q could just stop all emtitions. but the imerpium wouldn’t claps hell they wou;ld have a major advantge then, they’d be able to use warp travel without the need of a null feild to protect the ship froom being flooded by deamons
Except of course, without emotions, they have no real motivation to destroy the UFP, now do they? Restore the emotions after the fact and the warp begins to grow unstable again. The Chaos gods as they were wouldn’t return, but something would replace them and they’d be back to square one.
But even with that advantage, the Imperium still does not have the ship numbers to overwhelm the UFP and maintain its own security against the Orks, Tyranids, Taur, Eldar, and the Necrons.
I assumed we were talking about a 1 on 1 situation
this is very true but i have already conseeded that in space UFP would win anyway against the imperium. but even if you natrualize the imperuim you still have all the other major powers to defeat, the only star trek race that would stand any chanse against the tyranids are the Q and the borg, and if the borg were able to assimulate the Tyranids it would make a super race which only the Q, or the choas gods if the Q hadn’t defated them at the time, could stop or maybe spieces 64782 (i think thats the borg killer race from fludic space but i can’t quite rememeber)
Just wanted to Imply a little something here. Chaos Gods. If both Universe where to collide, chaos would only die off from belief. You have merely factor out the influential powers that the Dark gods have. Whats to stop them from corrupting the Q? imagine that. Chaos alone would reduce the on themselves just like the Horus Heresy.
Chaos would manifiest not just onto the Q but the rest of the realm. so you can pretty much count that half of the Star Trek universe would fight itself. Thus leaving Warhammer universe into more millenia of War.
Oh and one more thing. although chaos alone would die without any believers, the gods wouldnt die, they just wouldnt live in that realm. the alternative realm is eternal. and the only thing hold the warp back is the GOD Emperor himself.
There are several super races in Trek that could defeat the Tyranids. Starfleet could defeat individual Hive Fleets though, as it turns out that biological weapons can work, so long as you have the proper genetic material. And Starfleet can do some very scary things with biological weapons.
And you’re thinking of Species 8472–yes, they’d probably crush the Tyranids.
[quote]Anonymous | April 18, 2012 at 2:00 pm | Reply
Just wanted to Imply a little something here. Chaos Gods. If both Universe where to collide, chaos would only die off from belief.[/quote]
Except no, that’s not true. We’ve seen warp entities die before. Look at the Eldar gods, who were slain by the chaos gods. There is absolutely no evidence to support that you need to kill all of their worshipers to kill them.
[quote]You have merely factor out the influential powers that the Dark gods have. Whats to stop them from corrupting the Q? imagine that. Chaos alone would reduce the on themselves just like the Horus Heresy.[/quote]
The fact that the Q are a very orderly species, where even their most rogue member typically just pulls pranks to amuse himself. One who was deadly serious about eliminating threats to the galaxy as a whole.
[quote]Chaos would manifiest not just onto the Q but the rest of the realm. so you can pretty much count that half of the Star Trek universe would fight itself. Thus leaving Warhammer universe into more millenia of War.[/quote]
Except no, there’s no reason to believe that. And even if by some miracle they manage to corrupt one Q, such a Q could be restrained by the rest long enough for them to put Chaos down like dogs.
[quote]Anonymous | April 18, 2012 at 2:02 pm | Reply
Oh and one more thing. although chaos alone would die without any believers, the gods wouldnt die, they just wouldnt live in that realm. the alternative realm is eternal. and the only thing hold the warp back is the GOD Emperor himself.[/quote]
…Do you even know what the fuck you’re talking about?
thank you XD thats the speices i was looking for and i was thinking that the tyranids alone are a big threat but imagine if the borg assimulated them, you’d have both forces, which are nearly impossible to deafeat in both their perspective universies, now combined imagine how powerful that would be. and if you didn’t know, the federation would have to kill the entire hive fleet at once, because otherwise by the next day tthey would be immune to the weapon used
Fun article and discussion, but I think the more interesting discussion is along the lines of Imperium vs Federation or Imperium with the help of races (example) Eldar, Orks, and Chaos Space Marines vs Federation with the help of Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, and Borg. At the end of the day I don’t see any way the Federation would come out on top. As you’ve stated, the Federation consists of *150* worlds. The Imperium consists of MILLIONS of worlds and hundreds of billions if not trillions of humans. Additionally, the Imperium never hesitates from using things like cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs to wipe all the life off a planet that’s either fallen Chaos, aliens, or rebel/heretical humans. I’m sure the Federation boasts similar world-destroying technologies, but they’d never use it on a heavily populated world just to win a war. The Imperium, on the other hand, wouldn’t hesitate to virus bomb all 150 of the Federation’s worlds in order to win a war.
I know very little about Star Trek, but I know that the creators were originally attempting to stay within the bounds of science (which is why I found the description of the race known as the Q so strange – from what you’re saying they’re totally omnipotent). The Federation is a happy, friendly place which uses force as a last resort and which possess realistic technology. The Imperium is a dark, paranoid place possessing vast, vast resources and fantastic (i.e. unconstrained by current scientific possibilities) weapons technology and the will to ruthlessly use them on entire populations during wartime. I think the Imperium would win.
I agree!
[quote]Fun article and discussion, but I think the more interesting discussion is along the lines of Imperium vs Federation or Imperium with the help of races (example) Eldar, Orks, and Chaos Space Marines vs Federation with the help of Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans,[/quote]
The Vulcans are one of the founding members of the Federation. And why would the orks, eldar, and chaos help the Imperium? They want nothing more to see them fail.
[quote]and Borg.[/quote]
The Borg have millions of ships…
[quote]At the end of the day I don’t see any way the Federation would come out on top. As you’ve stated, the Federation consists of *150* worlds.[/quote]
The UFP has 150 MEMBER worlds. It has well over a thousand worlds, possibly thousands.
[quote]The Imperium consists of MILLIONS of worlds and hundreds of billions if not trillions of humans.[/quote]
First off, the Imperium is repeatedly stated to have a million worlds. And the UFP was suggested during a prolonged war against the Dominion, that they’d suffer ~900 billion casualties.
[quote]Additionally, the Imperium never hesitates from using things like cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs to wipe all the life off a planet that’s either fallen Chaos, aliens, or rebel/heretical humans. I’m sure the Federation boasts similar world-destroying technologies, but they’d never use it on a heavily populated world just to win a war. The Imperium, on the other hand, wouldn’t hesitate to virus bomb all 150 of the Federation’s worlds in order to win a war.[/quote]
If you think the Imperium carpet bombing planets to win won’t cause a strong reaction among the UFP, you’re sorely mistaken. Starfleet and Section 31 have considered genocide against enemies before, including the Dominion and the Borg.
[quote]I know very little about Star Trek, but I know that the creators were originally attempting to stay within the bounds of science (which is why I found the description of the race known as the Q so strange – from what you’re saying they’re totally omnipotent).[/quote]
…Which is why Gene came up with the brilliant idea of removing all signs of an economy from the Federation? Or why Spock had his brain removed in the third season of TOS? They tried to keep within the realm of plausibility, yes that’s true, but they never strictly bound themselves to science. And they’d ran into at least half a dozen god-like entities before Q.
[quote]The Federation is a happy, friendly place which uses force as a last resort and which possess realistic technology. The Imperium is a dark, paranoid place possessing vast, vast resources and fantastic (i.e. unconstrained by current scientific possibilities) weapons technology and the will to ruthlessly use them on entire populations during wartime. I think the Imperium would win.[/quote]
You should watch Deep Space Nine.
I love Deep Space Nine but that show was developed when Roddenberry was very ill. I think he would have liked the show ultimately but its militaristic space opera tone is at odds with the utopian vision Rodenberry put forth in his version of Star Trek.
the imperium and the UFP are evenly matched, in diffrent ways,, but when you add the other 40k races into the fray such as the Eldar who would help the Imperium if it was in their own intrest, same goes for the Tau
The Imperium and the UFP are evenly matched? I think unless the UFP uses some sort of chronal warfare ie go into the past and destroy the Imperium before it begins, then the UFP is outmatched in every way. I have to admit at this point the comments may be more interesting than the original article! Thanks for visiting my site!
I love this debate but….wasn’t this supposed to be Federation vs. Imperium? that doesnt realy intail the other races so i cant understand why you pulled them all into this. idk im just leaving one comment ever. but i still want to know if it came down to it would the federation stand any chance at all?
Actually thats one of the major problems with the debate! You have to define who is fighting who first. Its debate 101 really. Define the terms of the debate but its often not done! The Federation is toast in my view but there are some people who have commented on this post and disagree. The Federation can do time travel. The Imperium cannot! Some have suggested the Federation could go back in the past and kill the Emperor before he even created the Imperium.
not to forget that the necrons r immortal and have/had the ctan which literally eat supernova for breakfast and when they consume enough life energy can destroy whole sub sectors of the universe in the blink of an eye. also ork belif creates reality and the more of them there is the more they belive they are invincible. and the more orks are beliving in the same thing in the same time the more invincible they become. not to mention mork and gork who if all the orks belived in them at onec would mantfest in reality as an enourmous, stompy large loud an’ cunnin’ perpetuallly fighting pair of destructive immortal ragemonsters. forget the chaos gods. the orks are the most common entity in a galaxy where half a trillion humans can live on a planet with millions of planets in the galaxy. and the tyranids evlove to defeat whatever they fight (apart from the orks cause they match them with the way the get bigger the more they fight and the necrons cause they rip stuff apart atom by atom) so personally i think that the warhammer universe can take anything that the star trekkies throw at them with just what i have mentioned and throw it back many times harder. and im only scratching the surface
I agree except for chronal warfare and the Q options available to ST.
The inquisition has the Ordo Chronus,which is dedicated to studying time travel
Good point!
i’ve said it before and i’ll sy it again, 40k would win the war. and as for the Q imgaine if one of hte choas gods corrupted the Q? then the choas would have near gods fighting along side them
And how hard would it be for the chaos gods to corrupt the Q? The Q act like teenagers. Teenagers are generally not that hard to corrupt.
the q would know that the chaos gods were going to try and corrupt them before they even decided to do it.
very good point
The chaos gods do feed on emotion, but they feed on other stuff as we.
Khorne: God of BLOODSHED, if these universes go to war, he’s gonna get WAY more powerful than he already is
Nurgle: Lord of DECAY, As long as things keep dying or decaying (Entropy), than nurgle is gonna get stronger
Slannesh: Prince of PLEASURE This can means pleasure drawn from everything i.e. Art, Music ETC
So if the chaos gods unite, i doubt the Q (or anything_ could survive.
(I haven’t forgotten Tzeentch, i just don’t know what makes him stronger)
The chaos gods may not be as powerful in the material universe, but they can still send out hordes of DEMONS to do the dirty work for them.http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daemon#.T5vIsmZ_hfI
Demonic incursions have been known to screw over entire sectors of space and turn them into hell on Earth (literally)
And i’m surprised that nobody has mentioned Titans http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Titans#.T5vJH2Z_hfI
Titans Are gigantic robots that carry weapons that can destroy entire cities OR armies
Please don’t call me bias, i just don’t know much about star trek
Oh no bias! I think 90% of the comments, and there are a lot of the comments agree that short of time travel warfare on the part of ST, or the Q, the 40K universe has ST for lunch.
@ anonymas we have mentioned titans on several occtions about four pages of this were about the titans. and time travel is acctally possible in the 40k universe, but you need a warp storm to do it just so you know i can provide evidence if you need me too
Necrons are the second oldest race in the Warhammer 40,000 universe and the oldest still surviving race (they killed off the Old Ones). Their technology is unmatched and, with their bodies of living metal, they are immortal. They cannot die, ever.
Then we have the God-Emperor, the immortal “human” being who came to life due to the human Shamans of old combining their souls. During the time of the Horus Heresy (31,000) he was incredibly powerful, his psychic powers sending the Chaos Gods reeling out of fear. He might not be much in physical form now, but his psychic powers are just as strong as they were back then, if not stronger. He supposedly created warp storms, is responsible for living Saints, the Emperor’s tarot, visions, space travel (astronomican) etc.
Then there’s the Chaos Gods, awakened due to strong emotions flowing in the Warp during medieval times. It was as if they’ve always been there, time being irrelevant in the Warp, you can’t guess their age.
And then there’s tonnes more stuff, Star Treks is fucked if you ask me.
i agree and no one has seen to realize the fatel floor in star treks travel when they enter the 40k universe, they use warp drive too, but have no null feilds so the moment they tried to go anywhere their ships would flood with daemons and other warp entitys
who’s to say the war would be fought in the 40k universe instead of the ST universe? maybe the Imperium enters the ST universe and the organians decide that the war would cost too many lives on both sides and sends them back home? the Imperium definitely has a big edge in terms of numbers and ship size, but I think the federation has em beat in weapon strength and technology in general. sheer numbers means a lot in a war, so if the federation were to win they would have to do it by using changeling-spies, transphasic torpedoes and adaptive hull plating
The Organian scenario is interesting. You see them a bit in the novels but not in the videos except for their one appearance in Classic ST when they stop the Klingons and Federation from fighting.
@anyonas
qoute: (I haven’t forgotten Tzeentch, i just don’t know what makes him stronger)
tzeench is known as the lord of change, in other words he mutates things and gets power from just about anything that is due to change
ps did i mention time travil is possible in the 4-k universe but it is higly un-pridctable : see the bit titled warp storm in this article
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp#.T58aqdmZHSg
Champora – the use of warp is not interchangeable in the context of 40k and ST universes. ST uses “warp” as their description of FTL travel. In a similar way that we use Mach to describe speeds compared to the speed of sound through our atmosphere. 40k ships travel through the warp – which is another dimension. Instead of FTL travel, 40k ships travel inter-dimensionally where distance and time have a loose correlation at best. This is why travel is hodge podge in the 40k universe.
I’m quite surprised no one has mentioned this yet…
Since the warp is merely an extra dimension… It is entirely plausible it does in fact exist in the ST universe and A. Has a different name, B. Isn’t a shit hole like in 40k because there wasn’t a galaxy spanning war that created shitty pissed off narcissistic gods, C. Just hasn’t been discovered yet.
Now as far as the science behind how the interface of two universes is concerned I’m no expert… But I would like to point out that if you a container shaped like an 8… Fill one side with red water (warp, empyrean etc… whatever you want to call it) and leave the other side clear. Now we know the extra dimension of 40k is all sorts of F’d up – hell they have WARP STORMS where it spills out into realspace. We also know the extra dimensions in ST are much calmer in respect and definitely don’t do this. So… To represent the merging of the two universes take an egg beater, whisk, large spoon or whatever… Agitate the bajeezus out of the red water and then punch a hole in the divider… What happens? The red pushes into the clear due to the pressure on the edge of the container due to the spinning eddy in the the center of the its container creating centrifugal force. I.e. The warp would probably push into ST universe – now what happens to it afterwards I haven’t the foggiest. (Assuming the two equations are even relevant but hey here we are discussing games and sci fi shows so why not)
Species 8472? Seriously? A joke compared to the ‘Nids… Have you guys looked at the size chart of the Nid fleet? It’s like the size of 1/2 the galaxy.
Also – Species 8472 would bite it fast they are all psychic and Fluidic space would shortly be overrun by screaming abominations – hell fluidic space may even be ST’s warp space…
@Mith – while I see your valiant arguments with technology you do forget that A. Space Marines have centuries of combat experience and Red Shirts are like Chartered Accountants with a pistol. 4.5MJ doesn’t mean doodley if you can’t hit the broadside of a Leman Russ.
You say that Melee has no place in modern warfare?? Well that’s possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard. A. I used to train with a MAC instructor and I am friends with many many vets – do you know why they teach hand to hand in the army? Oh yeah – “’cause shit happens” . B. Did you know in Iraq a UK squad, outnumbered and under fire, initiated a BAYONET charge. Phasers or AK-47’s be damned close combat has it’s uses – oh and guess what? The Brits kicked Iraqi ass.
As far as the tera/peta ton argument I am not a nuclear physicist but… From the 40k wiki…
This creates a blast zone the size of a small planet, powerful enough to destroy a light cruiser in a single hit or cripple a battleship.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Nova_Cannon
So… Blast zone size of a planet… Yet a battleship is crippled, not destroyed…
So let me point this out – The asteroid impact that cause the K-T extinction event has been worked out to have released 25-119 Teratons of TNT Equivalent… Multiple scholarly papers exist with data to support this… And we exist because Earth wasn’t shattered… So ergo The Nova cannon would be in the Tera/Peta ton range.
Another thing that does bother me about Earths geological history… We got nailed about 5B years ago by a chunk of planet about the size of Mars… All we got was a crummy moon.
Nova cannon > Planetary impact… o _ 0*
And lastly lest you forget your military history…
In WW2 Ze Germans enjoyed numerous technical advantages in arms and armor over their enemies… From 1939-1945 they produced, in total, ~50,000 avf’s of all types from Self Propelled Tank Destroyers such as the Marder line and Stug line to the vaunted Tiger and Panther… They enjoyed a tank v tank kill ratio on average from 5-10:1… Yet from 1941-1945 the united states produced 55,000 M4 shermans and its variants… That’s just the M4 mind you… The Ruskies also had their mass produced tank – the T-34 and its variants… 57,000 were made from 41-45… Why do I bring this up? Well remember who won that war?
This wasn’t about what if this universe met the other, it was “Here’s the UFP in one corner and the IoM in the other” no Nids, no Borg no Orks or Q. You take your Redshirts and Phasers set to whatever level you want. Give me million worlds and I’ll launch guardsmen carcasses out of my torpedo tubes until they overload your shields.
P.S. It’s not the 41st century Mith… It’s the 41st Millenia… Big difference.
P.P.S. I would also like to suggest that since the Phaser is a particle weapon that “heats up a target” quote from trek wiki. It would have quite some problems dealing with Ceramite Armor – I could be wrong on my lore here but I believe Ceramite is very similar to the metal/ceramic/metal armor layout of the M1 Abrams and it successors. This armor is very effective at defeating multiple HEAT rounds which act similar to Phasers by “injecting” a stream of molten metal into the impacted target. Ceramics diffuse this “beam of molten metal” negating its energy. If this is the case a Phaser set to kill might take multiple shots just to penetrate power armor. This makes a bit of sense because important trekkies do take cover behind rocks and crates ALL THE DAMN TIME – even referenced by this quote… “Trekkies have claimed that a single shot from a hand phaser can rearrange the landscape by bringing down buildings or mountains. Despite one supporting claim from a deranged character[11], hand-phasers have never demonstrated firepower of this magnitude, and characters routinely protect themselves from phaser fire by hiding behind ordinary rock formations[12] or even packing crates” So… To protect myself from incoming phaser fire do I take… A. The fully mechanized, pressurized, strength enhancing, sense augmenting, not to mention sweet looking power armor…
or B. A packing crate?
Call me nuts, but I’m going with A.
One final thought on numbers…
900 Billion casualties in the dominion war… is a drop in the bucket if you consider 1 million worlds at an average of Earths population 6.5 Billion. I have always found UK math lacking here… Untold Billions in the galaxy… well lets shoot for this number 6.5B/World x 1M worlds = 6.5 x 10^15 Population or 6.5 Quadrillion. 6.5 Million Billion… Yeah.
Sorry Mith I just don’t see how ST can pull this off in this scenario. And if it was this other scenario “Rift opens, ST universe explores… ST would say… “Well fuck that. They have Demons, and Walking Dead Metal Guys, and 8472’s unreasoning, hellbent on eating us ugly big brother, and Humans that are paranoid and have really, REALLY big/powerful ships and D Eldar that just popped the F out of nowhere raided our exploration party and vanished. Close the rift, close it now and we won’t look back… Or else we will have to set up a base guarding this thing to make sure none of that shit makes it into our pretty little utopian paradise…”
Hmmmmmmm… A base guarding the gateway into the shitshow… Kind of like……………………………….. CADIA. Hats off to the boys and girls that man the Cadian Gate.
Fokker, out.
Could the Nagilum in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Silence_Has_Lease
be some sort of chaos god type creature in the Star Trek Universe. The Nagilum creature had many “Lovecraft” sort of characteristics as do the Chaos gods
@Sr. Nerd thanks for the explantion of warp travel 😀 it really helped but i still think the 40k universe would kick Star trek’s butt, and i agrree specaise 8472 may be powerful but theyy would get swapmed by the nids
@Champora – not to be confused I agree with you on the fact that 40k would win in a head to head match.
don’t get me wrong i don’t think the 40k universe would steam role the star trek universe but i still think 40k would win, except for the fact the st universe could use chrono weaponry
OK, I have read something close to a third of the comments here. Quite a few mentioned time travel, and that there is no comparison in the Warhammer 40k universe. I’m sorry if I’m repeating some one else, but in the Horus Heresy novel: The First Heretic, a daemon takes some of the Word Bearers back in time to destroy the Emperor’s gene lab, sending the Primarchs across the galaxy. Time travel arguments are now moot.
No one has mentioned this particular piece of 40K lore. The fact that time travel has been impossible to control by 40K Space Marines has been mentioned. So basically you are saying because of what happened to the World Bearers, time travel of a controlled sort is impossible for any entity in the 40K universe including ST visitors? The Word Bearers ended up in the wrong place and time so that would happen to anyone else that attempted the same feat? Well Daemon’s might not know as much about time travel as ST engineers in the 29th century might know things about time travel even Daemons do not! In the 29th century, heck they build a friggin time ship:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Aeon
Are you saying some technology is just beyond the capability of ST period? I could accept that the laws of physics in the 40K universe do not allow time travel. However, this is not the case, controlled time travel has not been done in the 40K universe! If ST can do it then its just a matter of time, pun intended, before a bright little ST engineer figures out how to control the process.
controled time travel is possible in the 40k universe, well sort of you can trigger time travel but when or where you’ll end up is competely random, by which i mean you could go back in time on earth and find yourself five thousand years in the future half a universe away, this is simple because un-like the st universe the only way you can achive time travel is using the warp, and anything using the warp is like using a chain gun single handed while blind folded, you might hit the target but you’ve got more chanse of hittting everything but the target.
o and has any one mention the legeion of the damaned yet?
Legion of the Dammed? They tried time travel and ended up totally in the wrong place right? If you can trigger a phenomena then the next step is control of the phenomena. If physics do not allow you to trigger the phenomena then thats but once you can trigger a phenomena then control is the next logical step very a very positivistic ST universe that is in this respect different from the Space Marines.
asorry i should have made that clearer, the leagion of the damned was my next point i#”m gona make so i’ll come back to that in a later poster, as for time travel point, you would first neetd to tame the warp to tame time travel and no one, not even the eldar, the most technologylu advanced race in the 40k universe has been able to do that, centrain technologys such as nulling feilds allow you to co-exist with it buut none have been able to fully tame it, except maybe the chaos gods
I do not know much about startrek i will admit, but i an an avid 40k fan. And in my personal opnion nothing in star trek comes close to the ruthlessness of 40k which would tip the scales into 40ks favor. one example: in the grey knights codex a spacemarine captain orders a ship filled with civilians to be completely destroyed just because one enemy was onboard. Plus when one man can decided to destroy a whole planet because they feel its the right course, how can anyone in st compete with that?
this is my first time commenting on a blog so please dont toally destroyme!
Your comments are in line with the vast majority of comments and I agree with you. So far this blog has been flame free and I would like to keep it that way.